7. R. Give now still greater heed. A. Behold me ready. R. Certainly this is a stone; and it is true on this condition, if it is not otherwise than it seems; and it is not a stone, if it is not true; and it cannot seem except to the senses. A. Yes. R. There are not therefore stones in the most secluded bosom of the earth, nor anywhere at all where there are not those who have the sense of them; nor would this be a stone, unless we saw it; nor will it be a stone when we shall have departed, and no one else shall be present to see it. Nor, if you lock your coffers well, however much you may have shut up in them, will they have anything. Nor indeed is wood itself wood interiorly. For that escapes all perceptions of sense which is in the depth of an absolutely opaque body, and so is in no wise compelled to be. For if it were, it would be true; nor is anything true, unless because it is so as it appears: but that does not appear; it is not therefore true: unless you have something to object to this. A. I see that this results from my previous concessions; but it is so absurd, that I would more readily deny any one of these, than concede that this is true. R. As you please. Consider then which you prefer to say: that corporeal things can appear otherwise than to the senses, or that there can be another subject of sense than the soul, or that there is a stone or something else but that it is not true, or that Truth itself is to be otherwise defined. A. Let us, I pray thee, consider this last position.

CAPUT V. Verum quid sit.

7. R. Attende in ista diligentius. A. En Adsum. R. Certe hic lapis est; et ita verus est, si non se habet aliter ac videtur; et lapis non est, si verus non est; et non nisi sensibus videri potest. A. Etiam. R. Non sunt igitur lapides in abditissimo terrae gremio, nec omnino ubi non sunt qui sentiant: nec iste lapis esset, nisi eum videremus; nec lapis erit cum discesserimus, nemoque alius eum praesens videbit. Nec, si loculos bene claudas, quamvis multa in eis incluseris, aliquid habebunt. Nec prorsus ipsum lignum intrinsecus lignum est. Fugit enim omnes sensus quidquid in altitudine est corporis minime perlucentis, quod non esse omnino cogitur. Etenim si esset, verum esset; nec verum quidquam est, nisi quod ita est ut videtur: illud autem non videtur; non est igitur verum: nisi quid habes ad haec quod respondeas. A. De iis quidem quae concessi, hoc natum esse video; sed absurdum ita est, ut quidquid vis illorum facilius negem, quam hoc verum esse concedam. R. Nihil repugno. Vide ergo quid dicere velis: corporea nisi sensibus videri posse, an sentire nisi animam, an esse lapidem vel quid aliud, sed verum non esse, an ipsum verum aliter esse definiendum. A. Isthuc ipsum, oro te, ultimum videamus.