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according to you, is power not in God, but has it come to be outside his hypostasis? But that which exists outside something is in every way separated from its hypostasis also; but we do not follow your impieties, nor do we speak of two principles separated by place, but saying there is one creator of the universe and one principle of all things, we teach that the Father and the Son fill all things, confessing the Father in the Son and the Son in the Father according to the saying which declares: I am in the Father and the Father is in me, and All that is the Father’s is mine. Therefore also John the God-bearer, as the Holy Trinity fills all things, says concerning the Word of God: He came to his own, and his own did not receive him. But according to you Manicheans, he did not come to his own, but rather to what was another’s, if indeed he came to the place of matter, wishing, according to you, to save the souls bound in a foreign place, so that even by means of what I recalled concerning the section, which was often mentioned by you, thinking to escape the division of the divine substance, not even so have you escaped; for you have fallen into the same impiety. But I shall return again to the point from which I digressed in my argument. Answer, then: is matter in itself, without being mixed with God, simple or composite? 14. MAN. Composite. 15. ORTH. And is the composite made from simple things? 16. MAN. It is so. 17. ORTH. If, therefore, matter is composite, it is clear that it has been composed by some other; for nothing brings itself to composition. How then, having been composed by another, is it without beginning? Besides, composite things are composed from different things, either pre-existing or considered together with each other; from pre-existing things, as electrum which is composed of gold and silver, <from> things considered together, as a head from bones and flesh and membranes and sinews; for these, being different, were constituted at the same time, and in no way did each pre-exist the head composed from them. Matter, therefore, if it is also composite, will no longer be one principle, but many more, being composite in and of itself and without composition with God. 18. MAN. Do you then say that matter is simple? 19. ORTH. I do not say that matter is simple, but I wish to show that it is not without beginning, nor uncreated as you say, and that it was brought forth with its qualities by the creator, its qualities being always changed and passing from one to another whenever it might occur to the God who brought it forth. For if it is simple, how have composite bodies come to be from one simple thing, I mean, from matter? And how in the one simple thing, in matter, do we find two opposites, generation and corruption? And if bodies are from it, it too will of necessity be a body; for that which has been generated from some body is a body; but if matter is a body, it is also composite; and being composite, it is not uncreated, as has been demonstrated. 20. MAN. From where, then, are diseases and deaths and such evils? For if these things do not happen to be from matter which is without beginning and uncreated and evil by nature, God will be the cause of their generation. 21. ORTH. For why do you consider diseases and death to be evils? And yet death liberates the soul from the body and releases it from the bond of matter, and disease, in turn, wastes away the body, which body you consider to be evil. And often disease also prevents the commission of sins, which the sick person would have committed, if he had not been fettered by the disease. Besides, answer me as I ask: Must one hate wickedness? 22. MAN. Yes. 23. ORTH. How then do you honor so greatly this thing which you pretend to hate, saying that it is like the good God, eternal and without beginning and uncreated?

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δύναμις κατὰ σὲ οὐκ ἐν τῷ θεῷ, ἀλλ' ἔξω τῆς αὐτοῦ γέγονεν ὑποστάσεως; Τὸ δὲ ἔξω τινὸς ὑπάρχον πάντως καὶ τῆς ὑποστάσεως αὐτοῦ διῄρηται· ἡμεῖς δὲ οὐχ ἑπόμεθα ταῖς ὑμῶν ἀσεβείαις, οὐδὲ δύο ἀρχὰς διῃρημένας τοῖς τόποις φαμέν, ἀλλ' ἕνα τοῦ παντὸς δη- μιουργὸν καὶ μίαν τὴν πάντων ἀρχὴν λέγοντες, πατέρα τε καὶ υἱὸν τὰ πάντα πληροῦν δογματίζομεν, πατέρα ἐν υἱῷ καὶ υἱὸν ἐν πατρὶ προσομολογοῦντες κατὰ τὸ λόγιον τὸ φάσκον· Ἐγὼ ἐν τῷ πατρὶ καὶ ὁ πατὴρ ἐν ἐμοί, καὶ Πάντα τὰ τοῦ πατρὸς ἐμά ἐστι. ∆ιὸ καὶ Ἰωάννης ὁ θεοφόρος, ὡς τὰ πάντα πληρούσης τῆς ἁγίας τριάδος, περὶ τοῦ θεοῦ λόγου φησίν· Εἰς τὰ ἴδια ἦλθεν, καὶ οἱ ἴδιοι αὐτὸν οὐ παρέλαβον. Καθ' ὑμᾶς δὲ τοὺς Μανιχαίους οὐκ εἰς τὰ ἴδια ἦλθεν, ἀλλὰ μᾶλλον εἰς τὰ ἀλλότρια, εἴ γε τῷ τῆς ὕλης ἐπῆλθε τόπῳ, τὰς ψυχὰς ἐν ἀλλοτρίῳ τόπῳ πεπεδημένας καθ' ὑμᾶς βουλόμενος ἀνασῶσαι, ὥστε καὶ δι' ὧν ἀνεκαλέσω τὴν τομήν, τὴν πολλάκις ὑπὸ σοῦ λεχθεῖσαν, οἰόμενος ἐκφεύξε- σθαι τῆς θείας οὐσίας τὴν διαίρεσιν, οὐδ' οὕτως ἐκπέφευγας· εἰς τὴν αὐτὴν γὰρ ἀσέβειαν περιπέπτωκας. Ἀλλ' ὅθεν ἐξέβην τῷ λόγῳ, πάλιν ἐπάνειμι. Ἀπόκριναι οὖν· ἡ ὕλη καθ' ἑαυτήν, ἄνευ τῆς πρὸς θεὸν συγκράσεως, ἁπλῆ ἐστιν ἢ σύνθετος; 14. ΜΑΝ. Σύνθετος. 15. ὈΡΘ. Ἐξ ἁπλῶν δὲ τὸ σύνθετον γίνεται; 16. ΜΑΝ. Οὕτως ἔχει. 17. ὈΡΘ. Εἰ τοίνυν σύνθετος ἡ ὕλη, δῆλον ὡς ὑπό τινος ἑτέρου συντέθειται· οὐδεὶς γὰρ ἑαυτὸν πρὸς σύνθεσιν ἄγει. Πῶς οὖν ὑφ' ἑτέρου συντεθεῖσα ἄναρχός ἐστιν; Ἄλλως τε τὰ σύνθετα ἐκ διαφόρων συντέθειται, ἢ προϋπαρχόντων ἢ καὶ συνθεωρου- μένων ἀλλήλοις, ἐκ προϋπαρχόντων μὲν ὡς τὸ ἤλεκτρον τὸ ἐκ χρυσίου καὶ ἀργύρου συντεθέν, <ἐκ> συνθεωρουμένων δὲ ὡς ἥτις κεφαλὴ ἐξ ὀστέων καὶ σαρκῶν καὶ ὑμένων καὶ νεύρων· ταῦτα γὰρ ἅμα συνέστη διάφορα ὄντα, καὶ οὐδαμῶς ἕκαστον προϋπέστη τῆς ἐξ αὐτῶν συντεθείσης κεφαλῆς. Ἡ ὕλη οὖν, εἰ σύνθετός ἐστι καὶ αὕτη, οὐκέτι ἔσται μία ἀρχή, ἀλλὰ πολὺ πλείους, αὐτὴ καθ' ἑαυτὴν σύνθετος οὖσα καὶ ἄνευ τῆς πρὸς θεὸν συνθέσεως. 18. ΜΑΝ. Ἁπλῆν οὖν φὴς εἶναι τὴν ὕλην; 19. ὈΡΘ. Οὐχ ἁπλῆν εἶναι λέγω τὴν ὕλην, ἀλλὰ δεικνύναι βούλομαι ὅτι οὐκ ἄναρχός ἐστιν, οὐδὲ ἀγένητος ὡς σὺ φής, καὶ ὅτι σὺν ταῖς ποιότησιν ὑπὸ τοῦ δημιουργοῦ παρήχθη, τῶν περὶ αὐτὴν ποιοτήτων ἀλλαττομένων ἀεὶ καὶ μεταβαινουσῶν ἄλλης εἰς ἄλλην ὅταν παρασταίη τῷ ταύτην παραγαγόντι θεῷ. Εἰ γὰρ ἁπλῆ ἐστι, πῶς ἐξ ἑνὸς ἁπλοῦ, φημὶ δὲ τῆς ὕλης, τὰ σύνθετα γέγονε σώματα; Πῶς δὲ ἐν τῷ ἑνὶ ἁπλῷ, τῇ ὕλῃ, δύο ἐναντία εὑρίσκομεν, γένεσιν καὶ φθοράν; Εἰ δὲ ἐξ αὐτῆς τὰ σώματα, σῶμα ἐξ ἀνάγκης καὶ αὕτη ἔσται· τὸ γὰρ γεγενημένον ἔκ τινος σώματος σῶμα ὑπάρχει· εἰ δὲ σῶμα ἡ ὕλη καὶ σύνθετος· σύνθετος δὲ τυγχάνουσα, οὐκ ἔστιν ἀγένητος, ὡς ἀποδέδεικται. 20. ΜΑΝ. Πόθεν οὖν νόσοι καὶ θάνατοι καὶ τοιαῦτα κακά; Εἰ γὰρ μὴ ἐξ ὕλης ἀνάρχου καὶ ἀγενήτου καὶ φύσει κακῆς ταῦτα τυγχάνει, ὁ θεὸς αἴτιος ἔσται τῆς τούτων γενέσεως. 21. ὈΡΘ. Τί γὰρ κακὰ νομίζεις τὰς νόσους καὶ τὸν θάνατον; Καίτοι θάνατος μὲν ἐλευθεροῖ τοῦ σώματος τὴν ψυχὴν καὶ τοῦ δεσμοῦ τῆς ὕλης ἀπαλλάττει, νόσος δὲ πάλιν τήκει τὸ σῶμα, ὅπερ σῶμα σὺ νομίζεις κακὸν ὑπάρχειν. Πολλάκις δὲ καὶ ἁμαρτίας ἐνεργεῖν κωλύει ἡ νόσος, ἃς ἔπραξεν ἂν ὁ νοσῶν, εἰ μὴ τῇ νόσῳ πεπέδητο. Ἄλλως τε ἀπόκριναί μοι πυνθανομένῳ· ∆εῖ τὴν κακίαν μισεῖν; 22. ΜΑΝ. Ναί. 23. ὈΡΘ. Πῶς οὖν ταύτην, ἣν μισεῖν προσποιεῖ, μεγίστως τιμᾷς, ὁμοίαν αὐτὴν λέγων τῷ ἀγαθῷ θεῷ, ἀΐδιόν τε καὶ ἄναρχον καὶ ἀγένητον;