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for the one prudently has relations with his own, while the other intemperately has relations with another's. 40. MAN. Is desire not evil? 41. ORTH. Not entirely; for it too is intermediate, and it is possible for it to be ordered by the supervision of the mind. Indeed, it is also possible to desire good things; for one is a lover of the poor, another a lover of money, and one makes use of intercourse for the sake of begetting children, but another for the sake of pleasure. 42. MAN. Tell me this, did the corruption of bodies and decay come to be from the good and incorruptible God? 43. ORTH. The phrase "from something" is said in many ways; for from me is my son, consubstantial with me, and from the carpenter the bench, and from the earth the fruits, and from the king confiscations. We therefore do not say that corruption is from the substance of God, but that it is brought about by His will for our benefit. For if, while things are corruptible, we are so mad about them as to move law-courts and wars against one another, what would we not have dared, if He had produced these things as incorruptible? And how were we to receive a perception of the gift of incorruptible life, which our Lord generously gave us, if we had not first had experience of this corruptible and mortal life, in which He deemed it good for us to strive beforehand? And besides, if corruption is an evil, generation is certainly a good, but surely generation and corruption concern the same body, therefore the body is not evil by nature, as you assert, dogmatizing that the body is of evil. But why do you consider and speak of the things of the body that you think are evil, but pass over the good things that come from them? For first, from the fruits brought forth from the earth we are both nourished and sustained; and from stones and wood, we build houses, by which we are freed from rain and frost, and we also avoid the scorching heat of the sun, which you are not ashamed to deify, and with iron not only do we plow the earth, but we also protect ourselves from attacking enemies. But if, being refuted by these things, you should persist, putting forward decay and foul odor, perhaps you are ignorant that things that have partaken of soul undergo decay and foul odor more. But of the good God, according to you, the soul is substance; the good God therefore will be the cause of what you consider evils, namely of decay and foul odor. 44. MAN. If they are not evils, why do laws punish them? 45. ORTH. This especially refutes your madness; for if it were not in our power to do evil and good things, the laws would not punish evildoers, which often do not look at the act, but examine the disposition of the one who acted; for example, someone threw a piece of wood and unwillingly killed someone, they do not judge the one who did it for murder; someone unwillingly had intercourse with another man's wife, having found her sleeping in his bed, as if having relations with his own wife, they acquit the accused of adultery, if this should be shown. But answer me, why do you worship the sun? 46. MAN. Because it is the light of the world, the offspring of the good God. 47. ORTH. Is it a body or bodiless? 48. MAN. Bodiless. 49. ORTH. And how can the bodiless be seen bodily? For bodiless things are perceived intellectually, but the sun is comprehended with perceptible eyes and by the circumscription of a body. And besides, is there any of the bodiless things that has bodily qualities? 50. MAN. I do not think so. 51. ORTH. But indeed the sun has bodily qualities; for it is both hot and dry; and these are qualities of bodies; therefore the sun is also a body. And how do you not blush, worshiping that which you ought to hate as doing things contrary to your dogma?

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μὲν γὰρ σω- φρόνως τῇ ἰδίᾳ μίγνυται, ὁ δὲ ἀκολάστως τῇ ἀλλοτρίᾳ. 40. ΜΑΝ. Ἡ ἐπιθυμία οὐκ ἔστι κακή; 41. ὈΡΘ. Οὐ πάντως· μέση γάρ ἐστι καὶ αὕτη, καὶ δυνατὸν αὐτὴν κοσμηθῆναι τῇ τοῦ νοῦ ἐπιστασίᾳ. Ἀμέλει καὶ καλῶν ἐστιν ἐπιθυμῆσαι· ὁ μὲν γάρ ἐστι φιλόπτωχος, ὁ δὲ φιλάργυρος, καὶ ὁ μὲν παιδοποιίας χάριν τῇ μίξει κέχρηται, ὁ δὲ χάριν ἡδονῆς. 42. ΜΑΝ. Τοῦτό μοι εἰπέ, ἐκ τοῦ ἀγαθοῦ καὶ ἀφθάρτου θεοῦ ἡ φθορὰ τῶν σωμάτων καὶ ἡ σῆψις ἐγένετο; 43. ὈΡΘ. Τὸ ἔκ τινος πολλαχῶς λέγεται· ἔστι γὰρ ἐξ ἐμοῦ μὲν ὁ υἱός μου ὁμοούσιος ἐμοί, ἐκ δὲ τοῦ τέκτονος τὸ βάθρον, ἐκ δὲ τῆς γῆς οἱ καρποί, ἐκ τοῦ βασιλέως δημεύσεις. Ἡμεῖς τοίνυν οὐκ ἐκ τῆς οὐσίας τοῦ θεοῦ φαμεν εἶναι τὴν φθοράν, βουλήσει δὲ αὐτοῦ ἐνεργεῖσθαι συμφερόντως ἡμῖν. Εἰ γὰρ φθαρτῶν ὄντων τῶν πραγμάτων, οὕτω περὶ αὐτὰ μεμήναμεν, ὡς δικαστήρια καὶ πολέμους κατ' ἀλλήλων κινεῖν, τί οὐκ ἂν ἐτολμήσαμεν, εἰ ἄφθαρτα ταῦτα παρήγαγεν; Πῶς δὲ καὶ αἴσθησιν ἐμέλλομεν τῆς δωρεᾶς λαβεῖν τῆς ἀφθάρτου ζωῆς, ἣν ἡμῖν ἐφιλοτιμήσατο ὁ κύριος ἡμῶν, εἰ μὴ πρότερον ἐν πείρᾳ γεγόναμεν τῆς φθαρτῆς ταύτης καὶ ἐπικήρου ζωῆς, εἰς ἣν ἡμᾶς προαγωνίσασθαι καλῶς ἔχειν ἐδοκίμασεν; Ἄλλως τε δέ, εἰ ἡ φθορὰ κακόν, ἡ γένεσις πάντως ἀγαθόν, ἀλλὰ μὴν περὶ τὸ αὐτὸ σῶμα γένεσις καὶ φθορά, οὐκ ἄρα τὸ σῶμα φύσει κακόν, ὡς ὑμεῖς διαβεβαιοῦσθε τὸ σῶμα τῆς κακίας εἶναι δογματίζοντες. ∆ιὰ τί δὲ ἃ μὲν νομίζεις εἶναι κακὰ τῶν σωμάτων θεωρεῖς τε καὶ λέγεις, τὰ δὲ ἐξ αὐτῶν ἀγαθὰ παρατρέχεις; Πρῶτον μὲν γὰρ ἀπὸ τῶν ἐκ γῆς ἀναδιδομένων καρπῶν τρεφό- μεθά τε καὶ συνιστάμεθα· ἐκ δὲ λίθων καὶ ξύλων, οἴκους κατα- σκευάζομεν, δι' ὧν ὄμβρου καὶ κρύους ἐλευθερούμεθα, ἀλλὰ καὶ τοῦ ἡλίου τὸ καυσῶδες ἐκκλίνομεν, ὃν σὺ θεοποιῶν οὐκ αἰσχύνῃ, σιδήρῳ δὲ οὐ μόνον τὴν γῆν ἀροῦμεν, ἀλλὰ καὶ πολεμίους ἐπιόντας φυλαττόμεθα. Εἰ δὲ τούτοις ἐλεγχόμενος ἐπιμένοις σῆψιν καὶ δυσωδίαν προβαλλόμενος, ἴσως ἀγνοεῖς ὅτι τὰ τῆς ψυχῆς μετασχόντα μᾶλλον τὴν σῆψιν καὶ δυσωδίαν ὑφίσταται. Τοῦ ἀγαθοῦ δὲ θεοῦ καθ' ὑμᾶς ἡ ψυχὴ οὐσία ἐστίν· ὁ ἀγαθὸς οὖν θεὸς αἴτιος ἔσται ὧν νομίζεις κακῶν, τῆς σήψεώς τε καὶ δυσωδίας. 44. ΜΑΝ. Εἰ μὴ ἔστι κακά, διὰ τί νόμοι κολάζουσιν αὐτά; 45. ὈΡΘ. Τοῦτο μάλιστα ἐλέγχει τὴν σὴν φρενοβλάβειαν· εἰ γὰρ μὴ ἐφ' ἡμῖν ἦν τὸ κακὰ καὶ ἀγαθὰ ποιεῖν, οὐκ ἂν ἐκόλαζον τοὺς κακούργους οἱ νόμοι, οἵτινες πολλάκις οὐ τὴν πρᾶξιν σκοποῦσιν, ἀλλὰ τὴν διάθεσιν τοῦ πράξαντος ἐξετάζουσιν· οἷον ἔρριψέ τις ξύλον καὶ ἄκων ἀνεῖλέ τινα, οὐ κρίνουσι φόνου τὸν ἐργασάμενον· ἐμίγη τις ἄκων ἀλλοτρίᾳ τινὶ γυναικί, ἐπὶ κλίνης αὐτοῦ κοιμωμένην εὑρών, ὡς τῇ ἑαυτοῦ μιγνύμενος γαμετῇ, ἀπολύουσι μοιχείας τὸν κατηγορούμενον, εἰ τοῦτο δειχθείη. Ἀπόκριναι δέ μοι, διὰ τί τὸν ἥλιον προσκυνεῖτε; 46. ΜΑΝ. Ὅτι φωστήρ ἐστι τοῦ κόσμου, τοῦ ἀγαθοῦ θεοῦ γέννημα. 47. ὈΡΘ. Σῶμά ἐστιν ἢ ἀσώματος; 48. ΜΑΝ. Ἀσώματος. 49. ὈΡΘ. Καὶ πῶς ὁ ἀσώματος σωματικῶς ὁρᾶται; Τὰ μὲν γὰρ ἀσώματα νοητῶς θεωρεῖται, ὁ δὲ ἥλιος αἰσθητοῖς ὀφθαλμοῖς καὶ περιγραφῇ σώματος καταλαμβάνεται. Ἄλλως τέ ἐστί τι τῶν ἀσωμάτων σωματικὰς ἔχον ποιότητας; 50. ΜΑΝ. Οὐ νομίζω. 51. ὈΡΘ. Ἀλλὰ μὴν ὁ ἥλιος σωματικὰς ἔχει ποιότητας· θερμός τε γάρ ἐστι καὶ ξηρός· αὗται δὲ σωμάτων ποιότητες· σῶμα ἄρα ἐστὶ καὶ ὁ ἥλιος. Πῶς δὲ οὐκ ἐρυθριᾶτε, σέβοντες ὃν μισεῖν ὠφείλετε ὡς ἐναντία ποιοῦντα τοῦ δόγματος ὑμῶν;