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Disputatio cum Manichaeo

DIALOGUE OF JOHN THE ORTHODOX WITH A MANICHAEAN 1. ORTHODOX. If the body is <from> matter, and the soul from the substance of the good God according to you, and these are opposites, and opposites are not composed without some craftsman, for example, black and white by a painter and by physicians the hot kinds with the cold, who is it that brought together the opposites, both soul and body, and made one living being? 2. MANICHAEAN. The good God, when matter was moving disorderly, taking a certain portion of his own power sent it to matter, wishing to bait it; and it took it and swallowed it down. And thus from the mixture of both the composite beings came into existence. 3. ORTH. These are certain myths, having more implausibility than impiety; first, because no one composes himself for the generation of another; and besides this, God is found from this to be passible and divisible, if indeed he took a part of himself and cast it to matter; but also matter, being evil, will be set free, having fallen in love with the good and swallowed the light from it. But otherwise, answer my question: is God incorporeal? 4. MAN. Yes, incorporeal. 5. ORTH. How then does the incorporeal and simple one endure cutting and division? 6. MAN. But I do not say that a division or a cutting of the divine substance has occurred, but a projection, consubstantial with the one projecting, and I do not think that you, being Christians, would dispute this. For you say that the Son of God and Logos is not a section of the Father's substance, and yet he is confessed among you as consubstantial with the Father and is preached by the holy scripture as having been sent into the world for the salvation of men; so, therefore, without a cutting having occurred, the good God projected a certain divine power to restrain the disorder of matter. 7. ORTH. And thus you will be convicted of falling into the charge of cutting. 8. MAN. Convict me, and I will be persuaded by what you say. 9. ORTH. I know that matter and God are divided in their own places, having heard it many times from the Manichaeans, and that the south is assigned to matter, while the north and east and west are assigned to the good God. 10. MAN. For so we confess. 11. ORTH. How then do you not fear the excess of so great a blasphemy, introducing the divine as circumscribed, which you confess to be good and all-powerful, and this, circumscribed by the most evil matter? For you give a limit to God, by positing him in a place; for a place is the limit of that which contains, insofar as it contains that which is contained. And God, being contained, is certainly circumscribed, and the very place that contains God is circumscribed at that boundary, where it touches the place of matter. And thus God will be circumscribed by a circumscribed place, according to you, who delimit God by a certain place. But let this be set aside; but tell me, do you say that God, while remaining in his own place, projects the power from himself and sends it out to the place of matter? 12. MAN. Yes, this is what I say. 13. ORTH. If then the projection from God occurred in a different place, while God remained in a different region, how was it not divided from the substance of the Father? For things that are separate in place must of necessity also be divided from each other; and so, therefore, that of God

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Disputatio cum Manichaeo

∆ΙΑΛΕΞΙΣ ἸΩΑΝΝΟΥ ὈΡΘΟ∆ΟΞΟΥ ΠΡΟΣ ΜΑΝΙΧΑΙΟΝ 1. ὈΡΘΟ∆ΟΞΟΣ. Εἰ τὸ σῶμα <ἐκ> τῆς ὕλης, ἡ δὲ ψυχὴ ἐκ τῆς οὐσίας τοῦ ἀγαθοῦ θεοῦ καθ' ὑμᾶς, ἐναντία δὲ ταῦτα, τὰ δ' ἐναντία οὐ συντίθεται ἄνευ τεχνίτου τινός, οἷον τὸ μέλαν καὶ λευκὸν ὑπὸ ζωγράφου καὶ ὑπὸ ἰατρῶν τὰ θερμὰ εἴδη τοῖς ψυχροῖς, τίς ὁ συναγαγὼν τὰ ἐναντία, ψυχήν τε καὶ σῶμα, καὶ ἓν ζῷον ἐργασάμενος; 2. ΜΑΝΙΧΑΙΟΣ. Ὁ ἀγαθὸς θεός, ἀτάκτως κινουμένης τῆς ὕλης, λαβὼν μοῖράν τινα τῆς ἑαυτοῦ δυνάμεως τῇ ὕλῃ προσέπεμ- ψε, δελεάσαι αὐτὴν βουλόμενος· ἡ δὲ λαβοῦσα κατέπιε. Καὶ οὕτως ἐκ τῆς κράσεως ἀμφοτέρων τὰ σύνθετα γέγονεν. 3. ὈΡΘ. Ταῦτα μῦθοί τινές εἰσιν, πλέον τῆς ἀσεβείας τὸ ἀπίθα- νον ἔχοντες· πρῶτον μὲν ὅτι οὐδεὶς ἑαυτὸν συντίθησι πρὸς ἑτέρου γένεσιν· πρὸς τούτοις δὲ παθητὸς καὶ μεριστὸς ὁ θεὸς ἐντεῦθεν εὑρίσκεται, εἴ γε μέρος αὐτοῦ λαβὼν τῇ ὕλῃ προσέρ- ριψεν· ἀλλὰ καὶ ἡ ὕλη τοῦ εἶναι κακὴ ἐλευθερωθήσεται, ἐρασθεῖσα τοῦ ἀγαθοῦ καὶ τὸ ἐξ αὐτοῦ φῶς καταπιοῦσα. Ἄλλως τε δὲ ἀπόκριναί μοι ἐρωτῶντι· ἀσώματος ὁ θεός; 4. ΜΑΝ. Ναί, ἀσώματος. 5. ὈΡΘ. Πῶς οὖν ὁ ἀσώματος καὶ ἁπλοῦς τομὴν καὶ διαίρεσιν ὑπομένει; 6. ΜΑΝ. Ἀλλ' οὐ διαίρεσιν ἢ τομὴν γεγονέναι λέγω τῆς θείας οὐσίας, ἀλλὰ προβολὴν ὁμοούσιον τῷ προβαλλομένῳ, καὶ πρὸς τοῦτο διαμάχεσθαι χριστιανοὺς ὄντας ὑμᾶς οὐκ οἶμαι. Τὸν γὰρ υἱὸν τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ λόγον οὐ τμῆμα τῆς τοῦ πατρὸς οὐσίας φατέ, καὶ ὅμως ὁμοούσιος τῷ πατρὶ καὶ παρ' ὑμῖν ὁμολογεῖται καὶ εἰς τὸν κόσμον ἀπεστάλθαι ὑπὲρ τῆς σωτηρίας τῶν ἀνθρώπων ὑπὸ τῆς ἁγίας γραφῆς κηρύττεται· οὕτως οὖν, τομῆς μὴ γενομένης, ὁ ἀγαθὸς θεὸς δύναμίν τινα θείαν προεβάλετο πρὸς τὸ ἐπισχεῖν τῆς ὕλης τὴν ἀταξίαν. 7. ὈΡΘ. Καὶ οὕτως ἐλεγχθήσει τῷ τῆς τομῆς ἐγκλήματι περι- πίπτων. 8. ΜΑΝ. Ἔλεγξον, καὶ πείσομαι τοῖς παρὰ σοῦ. 9. ὈΡΘ. ∆ιῃρῆσθαι τὴν ὕλην καὶ τὸν θεὸν ἰδίοις τόποις οἶδα, πολλάκις ἀκηκοὼς παρὰ τῶν Μανιχαίων, καὶ ὡς τὸ μὲν νότιον τῇ ὕλῃ, τὸ δὲ βόρειον καὶ ἀνατολικὸν καὶ δυτικὸν προσνέμεται τῷ ἀγαθῷ θεῷ. 10. ΜΑΝ. Οὕτως γὰρ ὁμολογοῦμεν. 11. ὈΡΘ. Πῶς οὖν οὐ δέδοικας τὴν τῆς τοσαύτης βλασφημίας ὑπερβολήν, περιγραπτὸν εἰσάγων τὸ θεῖον, ὃν ἀγαθὸν καὶ παντοδύναμον ὁμολογεῖς, καὶ ταῦτα ἀπὸ τῆς κακίστης ὕλης περιγρα- φόμενον; Πέρας γὰρ τῷ θεῷ δίδως, ἐν τόπῳ τοῦτον ὑποτιθέμενος· τόπος γάρ ἐστι πέρας τοῦ περιέχοντος, καθὸ περιέχει τὸ περιεχόμενον· περιεχόμενος δὲ ὁ θεὸς περιγραπτὸς πάντως ἐστίν, καὶ αὐτὸς δὲ ὁ τὸν θεὸν περιέχων τόπος περιγράφεται κατ' ἐκεῖνο τὸ τέλος, καθὸ τῆς ὕλης τοῦ τόπου ἐφάπτεται. Καὶ οὕτως ὑπὸ περιγραφομένου τόπου περιγραφήσεται ὁ θεὸς καθ' ὑμᾶς, τοὺς τόπῳ τινὶ περιορίζοντας τὸν θεόν. Ἀλλὰ τοῦτο μὲν παρεί- σθω· εἰπὲ δέ μοι, ἐν τῷ οἰκείῳ τόπῳ μένοντα τὸν θεὸν φὴς προ- βάλλεσθαι τὴν ἐξ αὑτοῦ δύναμιν καὶ ἐπὶ τὸν τῆς ὕλης ἐξαποστεῖ- λαι τόπον; 12. ΜΑΝ. Ναί, τοῦτό φημι. 13. ὈΡΘ. Εἰ οὖν ἡ ἐκ θεοῦ προβολὴ ἐν ἑτέρῳ γέγονε τόπῳ, τοῦ θεοῦ ἐν ἑτέρῳ χωρίῳ διαμείναντος, πῶς οὐκ ἐμερίσθη τῆς τοῦ πατρὸς ὑποστάσεως; Τὰ γὰρ διεστῶτα τοῖς τόποις πάντως καὶ ἀλλήλων διαιρεῖσθαι ἀνάγκη· καὶ οὕτως οὖν ἡ τοῦ θεοῦ