19. R. You speak as if I were now inquiring what you hope. I am not inquiring what, denied, delights not, but what delights, obtained. For an extinguished plague is one thing, a dormant plague another. And, as some wise men say, all pools are so unsound, that they always smell of every foul thing, although you do not always perceive this, but only when you stir them up. And there is a wide difference whether a craving is suppressed by hopelessness of compassing it, or is expelled by saneness of soul. A. Although I am not able to answer thee, never wilt thou, for all this, persuade me that in this affection of mind in which I now perceive myself to be, I have advantaged nothing. R. This, doubtless, appears so to thee, because although thou mightest desire these things, yet they would not seem to thee objects of desire, on their own account, but for ulterior ends. A. That is what I was endeavoring to say: for when I desired riches, I desired them for this reason, that I might be rich. And those honors, the lust of which I have declared myself to have but even now thoroughly overcome, I craved by a mere delight in some intrinsic splendor I imputed to them; and nothing else did I expect in a wife, when I expected, than the reputable enjoyment of voluptuousness. Then there was in me a veritable craving for those things; now I utterly contemn them all: but if I cannot except through these find a passage to those things which in effect I desire, I do not pursue them as things to be embraced, but accept them as things to be allowed. R. A thoroughly excellent distinction: for neither do I impute unworthiness to the desire of any lower things that are sought on account of something else.

19. R. Ita istud dicis, quasi ego nunc requiram quid speres. Non quaero quid negatum non delectet, sed qui delectet oblatum. Aliud est enim exhausta pestis, aliud consopita. Ad hoc enim valet quod a quibusdam doctis viris dictum est, ita omnes stultos insanos esse, ut male olere omne coenum, quod non semper, sed dum commoves, sentias. Multum interest utrum animi desperatione obruatur cupiditas, an sanitate pellatur. A. Quanquam tibi respondere non possum, nunquam tamen mihi persuadebis ut hac affectione mentis, qua nunc me esse sentio, nihil me profecisse arbitrer. R. Credo propterea tibi hoc videri, 0880 quia quamvis ista optare posses, non tamen propter seipsa, sed propter aliud expetenda viderentur. A. Hoc est quod dicere cupiebam: nam quando desideravi divitias, ideo desideravi ut dives essem, honoresque ipsos, quorum cupiditatem modo me perdomuisse respondi, eorum nescio quo nitore delectatus volebam; nihilque aliud in uxore semper attendi, cum attendi, nisi quam mihi efficeret cum bona fama voluptatem. Tunc erat istorum in me vera cupiditas; nunc ea omnia prorsus aspernor: sed si ad illa quae cupio non nisi per haec mihi transitus datur, non amplectenda appeto, sed subeo toleranda. R. Optime omnino: nam nec ego ullarum rerum vocandam puto cupiditatem, quae propter aliud requiruntur.