Arnobius of Sicca, The Seven Books of Arnobius Against the Heathen

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Arnobius of Sicca, The Seven Books of Arnobius Against the Heathen

The Seven Books of Arnobius Against the Heathen.…

The Seven Books of Arnobius Against the Heathen.

2. Let us therefore examine carefully the real significance of that opinion, and what is the nature of the allegation and laying aside all desire for

3. Since this is so, and since no strange influence has suddenly manifested itself to break the continuous course of events by interrupting their succ

4. When was the human race destroyed by a flood? was it not before us? When was the world set on fire, and reduced to coals and ashes? was it not befo

5. Did we bring it about, that ten thousand years ago a vast number of men burst forth from the island which is called the Atlantis of Neptune, as Pla

6. Although you allege that those wars which you speak of were excited through hatred of our religion, it would not be difficult to prove, that after

7. But if, say my opponents, no damage is done to human affairs by you, whence arise those evils by which wretched mortals are now oppressed and overw

8. And yet, that I may not seem to have no opinion on subjects of this kind, that I may not appear when asked to have nothing to offer, I may say, Wha

9. It rains not from heaven, my opponent says, and we are in distress from some extraordinary deficiency of grain crops. What then, do you demand that

10. And if anything happens which does not foster ourselves or our affairs with joyous success, it is not to be set down forthwith as an evil, and as

11. Would you venture to say that, in this universe, this thing or the other thing is an evil, whose origin and cause you are unable to explain and to

12. It is rather presumptuous, when you are not your own master, even when you are the property of another, to dictate terms to those more powerful t

13. Because of the Christians, my opponents say, the gods inflict upon us all calamities, and ruin is brought on our crops by the heavenly deities. I

14. And yet do we not see that, in these years and seasons that have intervened, victories innumerable have been gained from the conquered enemy,—that

15. Sometimes, however, there were seasons of scarcity yet they were relieved by times of plenty. Again, certain wars were carried on contrary to our

16. Yet one cannot discover by any rational process of reasoning, what is the meaning of these statements. If the gods willed that the Alemanni and th

17. And yet, O ye great worshippers and priests of the deities, why, as you assert that those most holy gods are enraged at Christian communities, do

18. But if this that you say is true,—if it has been tested and thoroughly ascertained both that the gods boil with rage, and that an impulse of this

19. Moreover, in this way you represent them as not only unstable and excitable, but, what all agree is far removed from the character of deity, as un

20. Do they on this account wreak their wrath on you too, in order that, roused by your own private wounds, you may rise up for their vengeance? It se

21. To you let them give good health, to us bad, ay, the very worst. Let them water your farms with seasonable showers from our little fields let the

22. And since facts themselves testify that this result never occurs, and since it is plain that to us no less share of the bounties of life accrues,

23. But the true gods, and those who are worthy to have and to wear the dignity of this name, neither conceive anger nor indulge a grudge, nor do they

24. These are your ideas, these are your sentiments, impiously conceived, and more impiously believed. Nay, rather, to speak out more truly, the augur

25. And lest any one should suppose that we, through distrust in our reply, invest the gods with the gifts of serenity, that we assign to them minds f

26. Is this, I pray, that daring and heinous iniquity on account of which the mighty powers of heaven whet against us the stings of passionate indigna

27. This is not the place to examine all our traducers, who they are, or whence they are, what is their power, what their knowledge, why they tremble

28. What say ye, O interpreters of sacred and of divine law? Are they attached to a better cause who adore the Lares Grundules, the Aii Locutii, and y

29. And would that it were allowed me to deliver this argument with the whole world formed, as it were, into one assembly, and to be placed in the hea

30. Does it not occur to you to reflect and to examine in whose domain you live? on whose property you are? whose is that earth which you till? whose

31. O greatest, O Supreme Creator of things invisible! O Thou who art Thyself unseen, and who art incomprehensible! Thou art worthy, Thou art verily w

32. Our discussion deals with those who, acknowledging that there is a divine race of beings, doubt about those of greater rank and power, whilst they

33. Is there any human being who has not entered on the first day of his life with an idea of that Great Head? In whom has it not been implanted by na

34. But in vain, says one, do you assail us with a groundless and calumnious charge, as if we deny that there is a deity of a higher kind, since Jupit

35. But suppose they be one, as you wish, and not different in any power of deity and in majesty, do you therefore persecute us with undeserved hatred

36. But, says my opponent, the deities are not inimical to you, because you worship the omnipotent God but because you both allege that one born as m

37. We worship one who was born a man. What then? do you worship no one who was born a man? Do you not worship one and another, aye, deities innumerab

38. But in the meantime let us grant, in submission to your ideas, that Christ was one of us—similar in mind, soul, body, weakness, and condition is

39. But lately, O blindness, I worshipped images produced from the furnace, gods made on anvils and by hammers, the bones of elephants, paintings, wre

40. But He died nailed to the cross. What is that to the argument? For neither does the kind and disgrace of the death change His words or deeds, nor

41. And yet, O ye who laugh because we worship one who died an ignominious death, do not ye too, by consecrating shrines to him, honour father Liber,

42. You worship, says my opponent , one who was born a mere But the He exhibited

43. My opponent will perhaps meet me with many other slanderous and childish charges which are commonly urged. Jesus was a Magian He effected all the

44. And yet it is agreed on that Christ performed all those miracles which He wrought without any aid from external things, without the observance of

45. What do you say again, oh you —? Is He then a man, is He one of us, at whose command, at whose voice, raised in the utterance of audible and intel

46. Was He one of us, I say, who by one act of intervention at once healed a hundred or more afflicted with various infirmities and diseases at whose

47. These facts set forth in sanctuary we have put forward, not on the supposition that the greatness of the agent was to be seen in these virtues alo

48. But, says some one, you in vain claim so much for Christ, when we now know, and have in past times known, of other gods both giving remedies to ma

49. And since you compare Christ and the other deities as to the blessings of health bestowed, how many thousands of infirm persons do you wish to be

50. Moreover, by His own power He not only performed those miraculous deeds which have been detailed by us in summary, and not as the importance of th

51. What say ye, O minds incredulous, stubborn, hardened? Did that great Jupiter Capitolinus of yours give to any human being power of this kind? Did

52. Come, then, let some Magian Zoroaster arrive from a remote part of the globe, crossing over the fiery zone, too those

53. Cease in your ignorance to receive such great deeds with abusive language, which will in no wise injure him who did them, but which will bring dan

54. But you do not believe these things yet those who witnessed their occurrence, and who saw them done before their eyes—the very best vouchers and

55. But if this record of events is false, as you say, how comes it that in so short a time the whole world has been filled with such a religion? or h

56. But our writers, we shall be told , have put forth these statements with false effrontery they have extolled only

57. You do not believe our writings, and we do not believe yours. We devise falsehoods concerning Christ, you say and you put forth baseless and fal

58. But they were written by unlearned and ignorant men, and should not therefore be readily believed. See that this be not rather a stronger reason f

59. Your narratives, my opponent says, are overrun with barbarisms and solecisms, and disfigured by monstrous blunders. A censure, truly, which shows

60. But, say my opponents, if Christ was God, why did He appear in human shape, and why was He cut off by death after the manner of men? Could that po

61. What, then, says my opponent , could not the Supreme Ruler have brought about those things which He had ordained to be done in the world, without

62. But, you will say , He was cut off by death as men are. Not Christ in its substance you ask I reply you say that death

63. What are these hidden and unseen mysteries, you will say, which neither men can know, nor those even who are called gods of the world can in any w

64. What, then, constrains you, what excites you to revile, to rail at, to hate implacably Him whom no man can accuse of any crime? all these men indi

65. Oh ungrateful and impious age, prepared for its own destruction by its extraordinary obstinacy! If there had come to you a physician from lands fa

1. Here, if any means could be found, I should wish to converse thus with all those who hate the name of Christ, turning aside for a little from the d

2. But indeed, some one will say , He deserved our hatred because He has driven religion one and how have any incline to any one all deeds

3. But He did not permit men to make supplication to the lesser gods. Do you, then, know who are, or where are the lesser gods? Has mistrust of them,

4. But all these things will be more clearly and distinctly noticed when we have proceeded further. For we shall show that Christ did not teach the na

5. What say you, O ignorant ones, for whom we might well weep and be sad? Are you so void of fear that these things may be true which are despised by

6. But perhaps those seem to you weak-minded and silly, who even now are uniting all over the world, and joining together to assent with that readines

7. In the first place, you yourselves, too, see clearly that, if you ever discuss obscure subjects, and seek to lay bare the mysteries of nature, on t

8. And since you have been wont to laugh at our faith, and with droll jests to pull to pieces our readiness of belief too, say, O wits, soaked and fil

9. What, have you seen with your eyes, and handled with your hands, those things which you write yourselves, which you read from time to time on subje

10. Finally, do not even the leaders and founders of the schools already mentioned, say those very things Did see them Did see you say

11. But, supposing that these things do not at all hinder or prevent your being bound to believe and hearken to them in great measure reason liberty

12. You bring forward arguments against us, and speculative quibblings, which—may I say this without displeasing Him—if Christ Himself were to use in

13. Meantime, however, O you who wonder and are astonished at the doctrines of the learned, and of philosophy, do you not then think it most unjust to

14. Do you dare to laugh at us when we speak of hell, and fires though is they are proffered only beings who were

15. Wherefore there is no reason that that should mislead us, should hold out vain hopes to us, which is said by some men till now unheard of, I suppo

16. But, they say , while we are moving swiftly down towards our mortal bodies, to be all even

17. But we have reason, one will say , and excel the whole race of dumb animals in understanding. I might believe that this was quite true, if all men

18. They have not learned, I will be told , to make clothing, seats, ships, and ploughs, nor, in fine, the other furniture which family life requires.

19. But if men either knew themselves thoroughly, or had the slightest knowledge of God, they would never claim as their own a divine and immortal nat

20. And, that we may show you more clearly and distinctly what is the worth of man, whom you believe to be very like the higher power, conceive this i

21. Now, as we have prepared a place for our idea, let us next receive some one born to dwell there, where there is nothing but an empty void, —one of

22. To what, then, you ask , do these things tend? We have brought them forward of men child speechless

23. If you give a grape to him when hungry, a must-cake, an onion, a thistle, a cucumber, a fig, will he know that his hunger can be appeased by all t

24. Why, O Plato, do you in the Meno put to a young slave certain questions relating to the doctrines of number, and strive to prove by his answers th

25. What say you, O men, who assign to yourselves too much of an excellence not your own? Is this the learned soul which you describe, immortal, perfe

26. But when I hear the soul spoken of as something extraordinary, as akin and very nigh to God, and as coming hither knowing all about past times, I

27. So then, if souls lose all their knowledge on being fettered with the body, they must experience something of such a nature that it makes them bec

28. And yet, that we may not be as ignorant when we leave you as before , let us hear from you so it did these and fleshly these how do they know from

29. Now, since it is so, cease, I pray you, cease to rate trifling and unimportant things at immense values. Cease to place man in the upper ranks, si

30. But will he not be terrified by the punishments in Hades, of which we have heard, assuming also, as they do

31. A certain neutral character, then, and undecided and doubtful nature of the soul, has made room for philosophy, and found out a reason for its bei

32. Since these things are so, and we have been taught by the greatest teacher that souls are set not far from the gaping jaws of death that they can

33. Seeing that the fear of death, that is, the ruin of our souls, menaces us, in what are we not acting, as we all are wont, from a sense of what wil

34. Since this is the case, what, pray, is so unfair as that we should be looked on by you as silly in that readiness of belief at which you scoff , w

35. But, say my opponents , if souls are mortal and One than we anything must who is if into

36. But the gods are said to be immortal. Not by nature, then, but by the good-will and favour of God their Father. In the same way, then, in which th

37. But if souls were, as is said, the Lord’s children, and begotten by the Supreme Power, nothing would have been wanting to make them perfect, as th

38. For, to begin with what is important, what advantage is it to the world that the mightiest kings are here? What, that there are tyrants, lords, an

39. But perhaps, some one will urge , the Ruler of the world sent hither souls sprung from Himself for this purpose—a very rash thing for a man to say

40. Was it for this He sent souls hither , that while the other creatures are fed by what springs up spontaneously, and is produced without being sown

41. Was it for this He sent souls, that they which shortly before had been gentle and ignorant of what it is to be moved by fierce passions, should bu

42. Was it for this He sent souls, that some should infest the highways and roads, others ensnare the unwary, forge with slaves their trust

43. What say you, O offspring and descendants of the Supreme Deity? Did these souls, then, wise, and sprung from the first causes, become acquainted w

44. But, you say, they came of their own accord, not sent by their lord. And my words it was done from action

45. But let this monstrous and impious fancy be put far from us

46. But, to say the same things again and again, let this belief, so monstrous and impious, be put far from us man

47. But, you say, if God is not the parent and father of souls, by what sire have they been begotten, and how have they been produced? If you wish to

48. Here, too, in like manner, when we deny that souls are the offspring of God Supreme, it does not necessarily follow that we are bound to declare f

49. But, you will say, there are good men also in the world,—wise, upright, of faultless and purest morals. We raise no question as to whether there e

50. You say that there are good men in the human race and perhaps, if we compare them with the very wicked, we may be led to believe that there are.

51. But you laugh at our reply, because, while we deny that souls are of royal descent, we do not, on the other hand, say in turn from what causes and

52. And yet, lest you should suppose that none but yourselves can make use of conjectures and surmises, we too are able to bring them forward as well,

53. Since this, then, is the case, we do nothing out of place or foolish in believing that the souls of men are of a neutral character, inasmuch as th

54. Can, then, anything be made, some one will say, without God’s will? We must consider carefully, and examine with no little pains, lest, while we t

55. But when, overcome, we agree that there are these things, and expressly allow that all human affairs are full of them, they will next ask, Why, th

56. As for all the other things which are usually dwelt upon in inquiries and discussions—from what parents they have sprung, or by whom they are prod

57. While, then, this is the case, and it cannot but be that only one of all these opinions is true, they all nevertheless make use of arguments in st

58. What, then, are we alone ignorant? do we alone not know who is the creator, who the former of souls, what cause fashioned man, whence ills have br

59. If that which it has pleased us to know is within reach, and if such knowledge is open to all, declare to us, and say how and by what means shower

60. Seeing, then, that the origin, the cause, the reason of so many and so important things, escapes you yourselves also, and that you can neither say

61. What business of yours is it, He says, to examine, to inquire who made man what is the origin of souls who devised the causes of ills whether t

62. And be not deceived or deluded with vain hopes by that which is said by some ignorant and most presumptuous pretenders, that they are born of God,

63. But if, my opponents say, Christ was sent by God for this end, that He might deliver unhappy souls from ruin and destruction, of what crime were f

64. But, my opponents ask , if Christ came as the Saviour of men, as I reply you in that case in this case

65. Nay, my opponent says , if God is powerful, merciful, willing to save us, let Him change our dispositions, and compel us to trust in His promises.

66. So, then, even if you are pure, and have been cleansed from every stain of vice, have won over and charmed those powers not to shut the ways again

67. Therefore, when you urge against us that we turn away from the religion of past ages as well as we. to advocates, do you observe genii hasta cælib

68. On the Alban hill, it was not allowed in ancient times to sacrifice any but snow-white bulls: have you not changed that custom and religious obser

69. But our name is new, we are told , and the religion which we follow arose but a few days ago. Granting for the present that what you urge against

70. But why do I speak of these trivial things? The immortal gods themselves, whose temples you now enter with reverence the other gods deities others

71. But our rites are new yours are ancient, and of excessive antiquity, we are told my opponent says I reply you ask was He was father it is also sh

72. But your religion precedes ours by many years, and is therefore, you say , truer, because it has been supported by the authority of antiquity. And

73. But are we alone in this position? What! have you not introduced into the number of your gods the Egyptian deities named Serapis and Isis, since t

74. And why, my opponent says , did God, the Ruler and Lord of the universe you ask

75. You may object and rejoin, Why was the Saviour sent forth so late? In unbounded, eternal ages, we reply , nothing whatever should be spoken of as

76. Inasmuch then, you say, as you serve the Almighty God, and trust that He cares for your safety and salvation, why does He suffer you to be exposed

77. Therefore that bitterness of persecution of which you speak is our deliverance and not persecution, and our ill-treatment will not bring evil upon

78. Wherefore, O men, refrain from obstructing what you hope for by vain questions nor should you, if anything is otherwise than you think, trust you

2. Let us now return to the order from which we were a little ago compelled to diverge, that our defence may not, through its being too long broken of

3. And as in the kingdoms of earth we are in no wise constrained expressly to do reverence to those who form the royal family as well as to the sovere

4. But we do not purpose delaying further on this part of the subject, lest we seem desirous to stir up most violent strife, and engage in agitating c

5. But let it be assumed that there are these gods, as you wish and believe, and are persuaded let them be called also by those names by which the co

6. And yet let no one think that we are perversely determined not to submit to the other deities, whoever they are! For we lift up my opponent says me

7. But why should I say that men seek from him subtleties of expression and splendour of diction, when I know that there are many who avoid and flee f

8. And yet, that no thoughtless person may raise a false accusation against us, as though we believed God whom we worship to be male,—for this reason,

9. What, then, shall we say? That gods beget and are begotten? and that therefore they have received organs of generation, that they might be able to

10. What say you, ye holy and pure guardians of religion? Have the gods, then, sexes and are they disfigured by those parts, the very mention of whos

11. And you dare to charge us with offending the gods, although, on examination, it is found that the ground of offence is most clearly in yourselves,

12. Thus far of sex. Now let us come to the appearance and shapes by which you believe that the gods above have been represented, with which, indeed,

13. But it is not enough that you limit the gods by forms:—you even confine them to the human figure, and with even less decency enclose them in earth

14. Are, then, the divine bodies free from these deformities? and since they do not eat the food of men, are we to believe that, like children, they a

15. Does any man at all possessed of judgment, believe that hairs and down grow on the bodies of the gods? that among them age is distinguished? and t

16. But you will, perhaps, say that the gods have indeed other forms, and that you have given the appearance of men to them merely by way of honour, a

17. But, they say, if you are not satisfied with our opinion, do you point out, tell us yourselves, what is the Deity’s form. If you wish to hear the

18. What, then, some one will say, does the Deity not hear? does He not speak? does He not see what is put before Him? has He not sight? He may in His

19. If you are willing to hear our conclusions, then learn that we are so far from attributing bodily shape to the Deity, that we fear to ascribe to s

20. This, then, this matter of forms and sexes, is the first affront which you, noble advocates in sooth, and pious writers, offer to your deities. Bu

21. And, I ask, what reason is there, what unavoidable necessity, what occasion for the gods knowing and being acquainted with these handicrafts as th

22. You err, my opponent says , and are deceived for the gods are not themselves artificers, but suggest these arts to ingenious men, and teach morta

23. But you will, perhaps, say that the gods are not artificers, but that they preside over these arts, and have their oversight nay, that under thei

24. No one, says my opponent, makes supplication to the tutelar deities, and they therefore withhold their usual favours and help. Cannot the gods, th

25. Unxia, my opponent says , presides over the anointing of door-posts

26. We shall not here mention Laverna, goddess of thieves, the Bellonæ, Discordiæ, Furiæ and we pass by in utter silence the unpropitious deities who

27. Now we may apply this very argument to Venus in exactly the same way. For if, as you maintain and believe, she fills men’s minds with lustful thou

28. Can any man, who has accepted the first principles even of reason, be found to mar or dishonour the unchanging nature of Deity with morals so vile

29. We might, however, even yet be able to receive from you these thoughts, most full of wicked falsehoods, if it were not that you yourselves, in bri

30. But what shall we say of Jove himself, whom the wise have repeatedly asserted to be the sun, driving a winged chariot, followed by a crowd of deit

31. Aristotle, a man of most powerful intellect, and distinguished for learning, as Granius tells, shows by plausible arguments that Minerva is the mo

32. Mercury, also, has been named as though he were a kind of go-between and because conversation passes between two speakers, and is exchanged by th

33. We here leave Vulcan unnoticed, to avoid prolixity whom you all declare to be fire, with one consenting voice. We pass by Venus, named because lu

34. Some of your learned men —men, too, who do not chatter merely

35. Men worthy to be remembered in the study of philosophy, who have been raised by your praises to its highest place, declare, with commendable earne

36. If we sought to subvert the belief in your gods in so many ways, by so many arguments, no one would doubt that, mad with rage and fury, you would

37. We are told by Mnaseas that the Muses are the daughters of Tellus and Cœlus others declare that they are Jove’s by his wife Memory, or Mens some

38. How, then, can you give to religion its whole power, when you fall into error about the gods themselves? or summon us to their solemn worship, whi

39. There are some, besides, who assert that those who from being men became gods, are denoted by this name,—as Hercules, Romulus, Æsculapius, Liber,

40. Nigidius taught that the dii Penates were Neptune and Apollo, who once, on fixed terms, girt Ilium teaching deity Consentes Complices dii Penates

41. We can, if it is thought proper, speak briefly of the Lares also, whom the mass think to be the gods of streets and ways, because the Greeks name

42. It is a vast and endless task to examine each kind separately, and make it evident even from your religious books that you neither hold nor believ

43. For if this deity requires a black, that if genius Jovialis dii Penates Digiti Samothracii have against our prayers

44. Wherefore, if you are assured that in the lofty palaces of heaven there dwells, there is, that multitude of deities whom you specify, you should m

2. For we—but, perhaps, you would rob and deprive us of common-sense—feel and perceive that none of these has divine power, or possesses a form of its

3. With regard, indeed, to your bringing forward to us other bands of unknown gods, we cannot determine whether you do that seriously, and from a beli

4. Pellonia is a goddess mighty to drive back enemies. Whose enemies, say, if it is convenient? Opposing armies meet, and fighting together, hand to h

5. The sinister deities preside over the regions on the left hand only, and are opposed to those on the right. But with what reason this is said, or w

6. Lateranus, as you say, is the god and genius of hearths, and received this name because men build that kind of fireplace of unbaked bricks. What th

7. Does Venus Militaris, also, preside over the evil-doing of camps, and the debaucheries of young men? Is there one Perfica, fascinum right as she

8. Say, I pray you,—that Peta, Puta, Patella may graciously favour you,—if there were no bees at all on the earth then, or if we men were born without

9. What then? you say do you declare that these gods exist nowhere in the world, and have been created by unreal fancies? Not we alone, but truth its

10. But if you urge that bones, different kinds of honey, thresholds, and all the other things which we have either run over rapidly, or, to avoid pro

11. What say you, O fathers of new religions, and powers? Do you cry out, and complain that these gods are dishonoured by us, and neglected with profa

12. But let them be true, as you maintain, yet will you have us also believe deity who are

13. Or, if you refuse to believe this on account of its novelty, how can you know whether there is not some one, who comes in place of all whom you in

14. Your theologians, then, and authors on unknown antiquity, say that in the universe there are three Joves, one of whom has Æther for his father an

15. And lest it should seem tedious and prolix to wish to consider each person singly, the same theologians say that there are four Vulcans and three

16. For suppose that it had occurred to us, moved either by suitable influence or violent fear of you, to worship Minerva, for example, with the right

17. We may say the very same things of the Mercuries, the Suns,—indeed of all the others whose numbers you increase and multiply. But it is sufficient

18. But some one on the opposite side says, How do we know whether the theologians have written what is certain and well known, or set forth a wanton

19. But perhaps these things will turn out to be false, and what you say to be true. By what proof, by what evidence, will it be shown ? For since bot

20. But you, on the contrary, forgetting how great their dignity and grandeur are, associate with them a birth, to them some singing

21. But perhaps this foul pollution may be less apparent in the rest. Did, then, the ruler of the heavens, the father of gods and men, who, by the mot

22. And, not content to have ascribed these carnal unions to the venerable Saturn, you affirm that the king of the world himself begot children even m

23. Men, though prone to lust, and inclined, through weakness of character, to yield to the allurements of sensual pleasures, still punish adultery by

24. If you will open your minds’ eyes, and see the real truth without gratifying any private end, you will find that the causes of all the miseries by

25. Did we say that Venus was a courtezan, deified by a Cyprian king named Cinyras? Who reported that the palladium was formed from the remains of Pel

26. But what shall I say of the desires with which it is written in your books, and contained in your writers, that the holy immortals lusted after wo

27. But among you, is it only the males who lust and has the female sex preserved its purity? Is it not proved in your books that Tithonus was loved

28. For where there are weddings, marriages, births, nurses, arts, and weaknesses where there are liberty and slavery where there are wounds, slaugh

29. And here, indeed, we can show that all those whom you represent to us as and call gods, were but men, by quoting either Euhemerus of Acragas, with

30. But in the discussion which we at present maintain, we do not undertake this trouble or service, to show and declare who all these were. But this

31. We wish, then, to question you, and invite you to answer a short question, Whether you think it a greater offence to sacrifice to them no victims,

32. But all these things, they say, are the fictions of poets, and games arranged for pleasure. It is not credible, indeed, that men by no means thoug

33. Your gods, it is recorded, dine on celestial couches, and in golden chambers, drink, and are at last soothed by the music of the lyre, and singing

34. But why do I complain that you have disregarded the insults offered to the other deities? That very Jupiter, whose name you should not have spoken

35. But is it only poets whom you have thought proper to allow to invent unseemly tales about the gods, and to turn them shamefully into sport? What d

36. But this crime is not enough: the persons of the most sacred gods are mixed up with farces also, and scurrilous plays. And that the idle onlookers

37. But this is the state of the case, that as you are exceedingly strong in war and in military power, you think you excel in knowledge of the truth

2. What the mind should take up first, what last, or what it should pass by silently, it is not easy to say, nor is it made clear by any amount of ref

3. But let us admit that, as is said, Jupiter has himself appointed against himself ways and means by which his own declared purposes might fittingly

4. But you will perhaps say that the king was a diviner. Could he be more so than Jupiter himself? But for a mortal’s anticipating what Jupiter—whom

5. In Timotheus, who was no mean mythologist, and also in others equally well informed, the birth of the Great Mother of the gods, and the origin of h

6. Now, when it had been often considered in the councils of the gods, by what means it might be possible either to weaken or to curb his audacity, Li

7. Then Midas, king of Pessinus, wishing to withdraw the youth from so disgraceful an intimacy, resolves to give him his own daughter in marriage, and

8. If some one, despising the deities, and furious with a savagely sacrilegious spirit, had set himself to blaspheme your gods, would he dare to say a

9. But why do we speak of your having bemired the Great Mother of the gods with the filth of earth, when you have not been able for but a little time

10. But you will perhaps say the human race shuns and execrates such unions among the gods there is no incest. And why, then receive my informant the

11. There was doubt in the councils of the gods how that unyielding and fierce violence was to be subdued and when there was no other way, they had r

12. Would any one say this about the gods who had even a very low opinion of them? or, if they were taken up with such affairs, considerations, cares,

13. Through her bosom, we are told, Nana conceived a son by an apple. The opinion is self-consistent for where rocks and hard stones bring forth, the

14. What say you, O races and nations, given up to such beliefs? When these things are brought forward, are you not ashamed and confounded to say thin

15. We might long ago have urged you to ponder this, were it not foolish to ask proofs of such things, as well as to say them. But this story is false

16. And yet how can you assert the falsehood of this story, when the very rites which you celebrate throughout the year testify that you believe these

17. Or if the things which we say are not so, declare, say yourselves—those effeminate and delicate men whom we see among you in the sacred rites of t

18. The greatness of the subject, and our duty to those on their defence also, demand that we should in like manner hunt up the other forms of basenes

19. We shall pass by the wild Bacchanalia also, which are named in Greek Omophagia, in which with seeming frenzy and the loss of your senses you twine

20. It was our purpose to leave unnoticed those mysteries also into which Phrygia is initiated, and all that race, were it not that the name of Jupite

21. Jupiter is troubled enough, being overwhelmed with fear, and cannot find means to soothe the rage of his violated mother . He pours forth prayers,

22. I do not think it necessary here also with many words to go through each part, and show how many base and unseemly things there are in each partic

23. I should wish, therefore, to see Jupiter, the father of the gods, who ever controls the world and men, adorned with the horns of an ox, shaking hi

24. But, my opponent says , these are not the rites of our state. Who, pray, says this, or who repeats it? Is he to the goddess our

25. In her wanderings on that quest, she reaches the confines of Eleusis as well as other countries —that is the name of a canton in Attica. At that t

26. If any one perchance thinks that we are speaking wicked calumnies, let him take the hooks of the Thracian soothsayer, which you speak of as of div

27. Are then your deities carried off by force, and do they seize by violence, as their holy and hidden mysteries relate? do they enter into marriages

28. I confess that I have long been hesitating, looking on every side, shuffling, doubling Tellene perplexities while I am ashamed to mention those A

29. Now, to prevent any one from thinking that we have devised what is so impious, we do not call upon him to believe Heraclitus as a witness, nor to

30. I confess that, in reflecting on such monstrous stories in my own mind, I have long been accustomed to wonder that you dare to speak of those as a

31. But you who assert that you are the defenders and propagators of their immortality, have you passed by, have you left untouched, any one of them,

32. But you err, says my opponent , and are mistaken, and show, even in criticising these gratify

33. These are all quirks, as is evident, and quibbles with which they are wont to bolster up weak cases before a jury nay, rather, to speak more trul

34. But, agreeing with you that in all these stories stags are spoken of instead of Iphigenias, yet, how are you sure, when you either explain or unfo

35. Finally, if you think it right, returning to our inquiry, we ask this of you, whether you think that all stories about the gods, that is, without

36. But you will perhaps say that these allegories are not found in the whole body of the story, but that some parts are written so as to be understoo

37. Let us examine, then, what is said in this way. In the grove of Henna, my opponent says, the maiden Proserpine was once gathering flowers: this is

38. Either, then, they must all have been written and put forward allegorically, and the whole should be pointed out to us or nothing has been so wri

39. Whence, then, do we prove that all these narratives are records of events? From the solemn rites and mysteries of initiation, it is clear, whether

40. And yet, even if we grant you that this is the case, that is, even if the narratives give utterance to one thing in words, but mean

41. It was once usual, in speaking allegorically, to conceal under perfectly decent ideas, and clothe with the respectability of decency, what was bas

42. But you will perhaps say, for this only is left which you may think can be brought forward by you, that the gods do not wish their mysteries to be

43. But what the meaning of this is, is already clear to all. For because you are ashamed of such writers and histories, and do not see that these thi

44. But if you come to the conclusion that these fables have been written allegorically, what is to be done with the rest, which we see cannot be forc

45. Judge fairly, and you are deserving of censure in this, that in your common conversation you name Mars when you mean you say

2. For—that you may learn what are our sentiments and opinions about that race—we think that they—if only they are true gods, that the same things may

3. But, we are told , we rear no temples to them, and do not worship their images we do not slay victims in sacrifice, we do not offer incense to Him

4. But, says my opponent , it is not for this reason that we assign temples to the gods as though we wished to I suppose it is that

5. Now, if this be not the case, all hope of help is taken away, and it will be doubtful whether you are heard by the gods or not, if ever you perform

6. What can you say as to this, that it is attested by the writings of authors, that many of these temples which have been raised with golden domes an

7. But why do I speak of the body story in men’s minds which is of all

8. We have therefore—as I suppose—shown sufficiently, that to the immortal gods temples have been either reared in vain, or built in consequence of in

9. We worship the gods, you say, by means of images. What then? Without these, do the gods not know that they are worshipped, and will they not think

10. And whence, finally, do you know whether all these images which you form and put in the place of the immortal gods reproduce and bear a resemblanc

11. You laugh because in ancient times the Persians worshipped rivers, as is told in the writings which hand down these things to memory the Arabians

12. From such causes as these this also has followed, with your connivance, that the wanton fancy of artists has found full scope in representing the

13. But why do I laugh at the sickles and tridents which have been given to the gods? why at the horns, hammers, and caps, when I know that certain im

14. We would here, as if all nations on the earth were present, make one speech, and pour into the ears of them all, words which should be heard in co

15. Lo, if some one were to place before you copper in the lump, and not formed into any works of art but into which they are forced

16. And so unmindful and forgetful of what the substance and origin of the images are, you, men, rational beings and endowed with the gift of wisdom a

17. But you err, says my opponent , and are mistaken, for we do not consider either copper, or gold and silver, or those other materials of which stat

18. What then? Do the gods remain always in such substances, and do they not go away to any place, even though summoned by the most momentous affairs?

19. The gods dwell in images—each wholly in one, or divided into parts, and into members? For neither is it possible that there can be at one time one

20. And yet, O you—if it is plain and clear to you that the gods live, and that the inhabitants of heaven dwell in the inner parts of the images, why

21. They say that Antiochus of Cyzicum took from its shrine a statue of Jupiter made of gold ten cubits high it was and him which he was taking away w

22. But you will perhaps say that the gods do not trouble themselves about these losses, and do not think that there is sufficient cause for them to c

23. But perhaps, as you say, the goddesses took the greatest pleasure in these lewd and lustful insults, and did not think that an action requiring ve

24. Here also the advocates of images are wont to say this also, that the ancients knew well that images have no divine nature, and that there is no s

25. For what grandeur—if you look at the truth without any prejudice —is there in these images were these expected to make men afraid?

26. O dreadful forms of terror and frightful bugbears veretra and arouse even severe given by means of punishment which should be

1b. [Migne 7.1] What, then, some one will say, do you think that no sacrifices at all should be offered? To answer you not with our own, but with your

2. Who are the true gods? you say. To answer you in common and simple language, we do not know for how can we know who those are whom we have never s

3. So, then, if these things are so, we desire to learn this, first, from you—what is the cause, what the reason, that you offer them sacrifices and

4. If perchance it is not this, are victims not slain in sacrifice to the gods, and cast upon their flaming altars to give them can that be by which w

5. We have next to examine the argument which we hear continually coming from the lips of the common people, and find embedded in popular conviction,

6. But let us allow, as you wish, that the gods are accustomed to such disturbance, and that sacrifices are offered and sacred solemnities performed t

7. But neither do I demand that this should be said, or that I should be told what causes the gods have for their anger against men, that having taken

8. But this, as I said, I do not mention, but allow it to pass away in silence. This one thing I ask, above all, What reason is there if I kill a pig,

9. So, if some ox, or any animal you please, which is slain to mitigate and appease the fury of the deities, were to take a man’s voice and speak thes

10. But perhaps some one will say, We give to the gods sacrifices and other gifts, that, being made willing in a measure to grant our prayers, they ma

11. Lastly, if the gods drive away sorrow and grief, if they bestow joy and pleasure, how are there in the world so many come the learned mere the use

12. Or the gods of heaven should be said to be ungrateful if, while they have power to prevent it, they suffer an unhappy race to be involved in so ma

13. We have shown sufficiently, as I suppose, that victims, and the things which go along with them, are offered in vain to the immortal gods, because

14. But all this conceding and ascribing of honour about which we are speaking are met with among men alone, whom their natural weakness and love of s

15. What then! some one will say, do you think that no honour should be given to the gods at all? If you propose to us gods such as they should be if

16. What say you, O you—! is that foul smell, then, which is given forth and emitted by burning hides, by bones, by bristles, by the fleeces of lambs,

17. Lo, if dogs—for a case must be imagined, in order that things may be seen more clearly—if dogs, I say, and asses, and along with them water-wagtai

18. And as we are now speaking of the animals sacrificed, what cause, what reason is there, that while the immortal gods—for, so far as we are concern

19. But you err, says my opponent , and fall into mistakes for in sacrificing female victims to the female deities, males to the male deities

20. But let us agree, as you wish, that there are both infernal regions and Manes , and that some gods or other dwell in these by no means favourable

21. But this, too, it is fitting that we should here learn from you: If a goat be slain to Jupiter, which is usually sacrificed to father Liber and Me

22. If, then, these things are vain, and are not supported by any reason, the very offering of sacrifices also is idle. For how can that which follows

23. For as to that which we hear said by you, that some of the gods are good, that others, on the contrary, are bad, and rather inclined to indulge in

24. Be it so let it be conceded that these most unfortunate cattle are not sacrificed in the temples of the gods without some religious obligation, a

25. For if whatever is done by men, and especially in religion, should have its causes,—and nothing should be done without a reason in all that men do

26. We have now to say a few words about incense and wine, for these, too, are connected and mixed up with your ceremonies, and are used largely in yo

27. Finally, that we may always abide by the rule and definition by which it has been shown and determined that whatever is done by man must have its

28. Will any one say that incense is given to the celestials, for this reason, that it has a sweet smell, and imparts a pleasant sensation to the nose

29. Wine is used along with incense and of this, in like manner, we ask an explanation why it is poured upon it when burning. For if a reason is not

30. But, says my opponent , you are insulting us without reason, for we do not pour forth wine to the gods of heaven for these reasons, as if we suppo

31. It is worth while to bring forward the words themselves also, which, when wine is offered, it is customary to use and make supplication with: “Let

32. But let there be, as you wish, honour in wine and in incense, let the auger and displeasure of the deities be appeased by the immolation and slaug

33. But the games which you celebrate, called Floralia and Megalensia my opponent Amphitryon Trachiniæ Hercules plays noise of fascina cestus speaking

34. Whence, therefore, have these vicious opinions flowed, or from what causes have they sprung? From this it is clear, in great measure, that men are

35. Come now: as the discussion has been prolonged and led to these points, let us, bringing forward what each has to say, decide by a brief compariso

36. You say that some of them cause excite and these things these to be

37. Since these things are so, and since there is so great difference between our opinions and yours, where are we, on the one hand, impious, or you p

38. If the immortal gods cannot be angry, says my opponent is the meaning of had they if

39. We have come, then, in speaking, to the very point of the case, to that on which the question hinges, to the real and most intimate part of the lu

40. But neither shall we deny that we know this as well, that once on a time, when the state and republic were in difficulties, caused either by risin

41. All these things which have been mentioned, have indeed a miraculous appearance,—rather, they are believed to have it,—if they come to men’s ears

42. And what pollution or abomination could have flowed from this, either to make the circus less pure, or to defile Jupiter, seeing that in a few mom

43. If Jupiter sought to have his games celebrated, and that afresh, sought pontifex maximus flamen Dialis in the games live in as he must have known

44. In like manner we might go through the other narratives, and show that in these also, and in expositions of these, something story only and now

45. And as we read that he used food also, by which bodily existence is kept up, he has a large gullet, that he may gulp down the food sought for with

46. But, says my opponent and in the earth in itself was colubra we say it was lay greatness if in the earth of the beholders

47. But if that snake was not a present deity, says my opponent the question the proposal deliverer them afterwards

48. But some one will perhaps say that the care of such a god has been denied being to the city

49. But the Great Mother, also, says my opponent

50. What shall we say then? Was Hannibal, that famous Carthaginian, an enemy strong and powerful, before whom the fortunes of Rome trembled in doubt a

51. But suppose that the deity was present in that very stone, as you demand should be believed: and what mortal is there, although he may be credulou

17. But, they say, if you are not satisfied with our opinion, do you point out, tell us yourselves, what is the Deity’s form. If you wish to hear the truth, either the Deity has no form; or if He is embodied in one, we indeed know not what it is. Moreover, we think it no disgrace to be ignorant of that which we never saw; nor are we therefore prevented from disproving the opinions of others, because on this we have no opinion of our own to bring forward. For as, if the earth be said to be of glass, silver, iron, or gathered together and made from brittle clay, we cannot hesitate to maintain that this is untrue, although we do not know of what it is made; so, when the form of God is discussed, we show that it is not what you maintain, even if we are still less able to explain what it is.

0961A XVII. Sed si vobis, inquiunt, nostra opinatio displicet, vos demonstrate, vos dicite, qua sit Deus praeditus forma. Si veram vultis audire sententiam, aut nullam habet Deus formam aut si informatus est aliqua, ea quae sit, profecto nescimus. Neque enim quod vidimus numquam, nescire esse ducimus turpe: aut ea re prohibemur aliorum sententias refutare, quia super hoc nostram nullam ipsi sententiam promimus. Ut enim si vitreus esse dicatur mundus, si argenteus, ferreus vel ex fragili conglobatus et fabricatus testa, non dubitemus falsum esse contendere, quamvis quae sit ejus materia nesciamus: ita cum de specie agatur Dei, quam perhibetis convincimus non esse, etiam si quae sit, minus possumus explicare.