The seven books of arnobius against the heathen.…

 Book i.

 The seven books of arnobius against the heathen.

 2. let us therefore examine carefully the real significance of that opinion, and what is the nature of the allegation and laying aside all desire for

 3. since this is so, and since no strange influence has suddenly manifested itself to break the continuous course of events by interrupting their succ

 4. when was the human race destroyed by a flood? was it not before us? when was the world set on fire, and reduced to coals and ashes? was it not befo

 5. did we bring it about, that ten thousand years ago a vast number of men burst forth from the island which is called the atlantis of neptune, as pla

 6. although you allege that those wars which you speak of were excited through hatred of our religion, it would not be difficult to prove, that after

 7. but if, say my opponents, no damage is done to human affairs by you, whence arise those evils by which wretched mortals are now oppressed and overw

 8. and yet, that i may not seem to have no opinion on subjects of this kind, that i may not appear when asked to have nothing to offer, i may say, wha

 9. it rains not from heaven, my opponent says, and we are in distress from some extraordinary deficiency of grain crops. what then, do you demand that

 10. and if anything happens which does not foster ourselves or our affairs with joyous success, it is not to be set down forthwith as an evil, and as

 11. would you venture to say that, in this universe, this thing or the other thing is an evil, whose origin and cause you are unable to explain and to

 12. it is rather presumptuous, when you are not your own master, even when you are the property of another, to dictate terms to those more powerful t

 13. because of the christians, my opponents say, the gods inflict upon us all calamities, and ruin is brought on our crops by the heavenly deities. i

 14. and yet do we not see that, in these years and seasons that have intervened, victories innumerable have been gained from the conquered enemy,—that

 15. sometimes, however, there were seasons of scarcity yet they were relieved by times of plenty. again, certain wars were carried on contrary to our

 16. yet one cannot discover by any rational process of reasoning, what is the meaning of these statements. if the gods willed that the alemanni and th

 17. and yet, o ye great worshippers and priests of the deities, why, as you assert that those most holy gods are enraged at christian communities, do

 18. but if this that you say is true,—if it has been tested and thoroughly ascertained both that the gods boil with rage, and that an impulse of this

 19. moreover, in this way you represent them as not only unstable and excitable, but, what all agree is far removed from the character of deity, as un

 20. do they on this account wreak their wrath on you too, in order that, roused by your own private wounds, you may rise up for their vengeance? it se

 21. to you let them give good health, to us bad, ay, the very worst. let them water your farms with seasonable showers from our little fields let the

 22. and since facts themselves testify that this result never occurs, and since it is plain that to us no less share of the bounties of life accrues,

 23. but the true gods, and those who are worthy to have and to wear the dignity of this name, neither conceive anger nor indulge a grudge, nor do they

 24. these are your ideas, these are your sentiments, impiously conceived, and more impiously believed. nay, rather, to speak out more truly, the augur

 25. and lest any one should suppose that we, through distrust in our reply, invest the gods with the gifts of serenity, that we assign to them minds f

 26. is this, i pray, that daring and heinous iniquity on account of which the mighty powers of heaven whet against us the stings of passionate indigna

 27. this is not the place to examine all our traducers, who they are, or whence they are, what is their power, what their knowledge, why they tremble

 28. what say ye, o interpreters of sacred and of divine law? are they attached to a better cause who adore the lares grundules, the aii locutii, and t

 29. and would that it were allowed me to deliver this argument with the whole world formed, as it were, into one assembly, and to be placed in the hea

 30. does it not occur to you to reflect and to examine in whose domain you live? on whose property you are? whose is that earth which you till? whose

 31. o greatest, o supreme creator of things invisible! o thou who art thyself unseen, and who art incomprehensible! thou art worthy, thou art verily w

 32. our discussion deals with those who, acknowledging that there is a divine race of beings, doubt about those of greater rank and power, whilst they

 33. is there any human being who has not entered on the first day of his life with an idea of that great head? in whom has it not been implanted by na

 34. but in vain, says one, do you assail us with a groundless and calumnious charge, as if we deny that there is a deity of a higher kind, since jupit

 35. but suppose they be one, as you wish, and not different in any power of deity and in majesty, do you therefore persecute us with undeserved hatred

 36. but, says my opponent, the deities are not inimical to you, because you worship the omnipotent god but because you both allege that one born as m

 37. we worship one who was born a man. what then? do you worship no one who was born a man? do you not worship one and another, aye, deities innumerab

 38. but in the meantime let us grant, in submission to your ideas, that christ was one of us—similar in mind, soul, body, weakness, and condition is

 39. but lately, o blindness, i worshipped images produced from the furnace, gods made on anvils and by hammers, the bones of elephants, paintings, wre

 40. but he died nailed to the cross. what is that to the argument? for neither does the kind and disgrace of the death change his words or deeds, nor

 41. and yet, o ye who laugh because we worship one who died an ignominious death, do not ye too, by consecrating shrines to him, honour father liber,

 42. you worship, says my opponent , one who was born a mere human being. even if that were true, as has been already said in former passages, yet, in

 43. my opponent will perhaps meet me with many other slanderous and childish charges which are commonly urged. jesus was a magian he effected all the

 44. and yet it is agreed on that christ performed all those miracles which he wrought without any aid from external things, without the observance of

 45. what do you say again, oh you —? is he then a man, is he one of us, at whose command, at whose voice, raised in the utterance of audible and intel

 46. was he one of us, i say, who by one act of intervention at once healed a hundred or more afflicted with various infirmities and diseases at whose

 47. these facts set forth in sanctuary we have put forward, not on the supposition that the greatness of the agent was to be seen in these virtues alo

 48. but, says some one, you in vain claim so much for christ, when we now know, and have in past times known, of other gods both giving remedies to ma

 49. and since you compare christ and the other deities as to the blessings of health bestowed, how many thousands of infirm persons do you wish to be

 50. moreover, by his own power he not only performed those miraculous deeds which have been detailed by us in summary, and not as the importance of th

 51. what say ye, o minds incredulous, stubborn, hardened? did that great jupiter capitolinus of yours give to any human being power of this kind? did

 52. come, then, let some magian zoroaster arrive from a remote part of the globe, crossing over the fiery zone, if we believe hermippus as an authorit

 53. cease in your ignorance to receive such great deeds with abusive language, which will in no wise injure him who did them, but which will bring dan

 54. but you do not believe these things yet those who witnessed their occurrence, and who saw them done before their eyes—the very best vouchers and

 55. but if this record of events is false, as you say, how comes it that in so short a time the whole world has been filled with such a religion? or h

 56. but our writers, we shall be told , have put forth these statements with false effrontery they have extolled small matters to an inordinate degre

 57. you do not believe our writings, and we do not believe yours. we devise falsehoods concerning christ, you say and you put forth baseless and fal

 58. but they were written by unlearned and ignorant men, and should not therefore be readily believed. see that this be not rather a stronger reason f

 59. your narratives, my opponent says, are overrun with barbarisms and solecisms, and disfigured by monstrous blunders. a censure, truly, which shows

 60. but, say my opponents, if christ was god, why did he appear in human shape, and why was he cut off by death after the manner of men? could that po

 61. what, then, says my opponent , could not the supreme ruler have brought about those things which he had ordained to be done in the world, without

 62. but, you will say , he was cut off by death as men are. not christ himself for it is impossible either that death should befall what is divine, o

 63. what are these hidden and unseen mysteries, you will say, which neither men can know, nor those even who are called gods of the world can in any w

 64. what, then, constrains you, what excites you to revile, to rail at, to hate implacably him whom no man can accuse of any crime? tyrants and your k

 65. oh ungrateful and impious age, prepared for its own destruction by its extraordinary obstinacy! if there had come to you a physician from lands fa

 Book ii.

 Book ii.

 2. but indeed, some one will say , he deserved our hatred because he has driven religion from the world, because he has kept men back from seeking to

 3. but he did not permit men to make supplication to the lesser gods. do you, then, know who are, or where are the lesser gods? has mistrust of them,

 4. but all these things will be more clearly and distinctly noticed when we have proceeded further. for we shall show that christ did not teach the na

 5. what say you, o ignorant ones, for whom we might well weep and be sad? are you so void of fear that these things may be true which are despised by

 6. but perhaps those seem to you weak-minded and silly, who even now are uniting all over the world, and joining together to assent with that readines

 7. in the first place, you yourselves, too, see clearly that, if you ever discuss obscure subjects, and seek to lay bare the mysteries of nature, on t

 8. and since you have been wont to laugh at our faith, and with droll jests to pull to pieces our readiness of belief too, say, o wits, soaked and fil

 9. what, have you seen with your eyes, and handled with your hands, those things which you write yourselves, which you read from time to time on subje

 10. finally, do not even the leaders and founders of the schools already mentioned, say those very things which they do say through belief in their ow

 11. but, supposing that these things do not at all hinder or prevent your being bound to believe and hearken to them in great measure and what reason

 12. you bring forward arguments against us, and speculative quibblings, which—may i say this without displeasing him—if christ himself were to use in

 13. meantime, however, o you who wonder and are astonished at the doctrines of the learned, and of philosophy, do you not then think it most unjust to

 14. do you dare to laugh at us when we speak of hell, and fires which cannot be quenched, into which we have learned that souls are cast by their foes

 15. wherefore there is no reason that that should mislead us, should hold out vain hopes to us, which is said by some men till now unheard of, and car

 16. but, they say , while we are moving swiftly down towards our mortal bodies, causes pursue us from the world’s circles, through the working of whic

 17. but we have reason, one will say , and excel the whole race of dumb animals in understanding. i might believe that this was quite true, if all men

 18. they have not learned, i will be told , to make clothing, seats, ships, and ploughs, nor, in fine, the other furniture which family life requires.

 19. but if men either knew themselves thoroughly, or had the slightest knowledge of god, they would never claim as their own a divine and immortal nat

 20. and, that we may show you more clearly and distinctly what is the worth of man, whom you believe to be very like the higher power, conceive this i

 21. now, as we have prepared a place for our idea, let us next receive some one born to dwell there, where there is nothing but an empty void, —one of

 22. to what, then, you ask , do these things tend? we have brought them forward in order that—as it has been believed that the souls of men are divine

 23. if you give a grape to him when hungry, a must-cake, an onion, a thistle, a cucumber, a fig, will he know that his hunger can be appeased by all t

 24. why, o plato, do you in the meno put to a young slave certain questions relating to the doctrines of number, and strive to prove by his answers th

 25. what say you, o men, who assign to yourselves too much of an excellence not your own? is this the learned soul which you describe, immortal, perfe

 26. but when i hear the soul spoken of as something extraordinary, as akin and very nigh to god, and as coming hither knowing all about past times, i

 27. so then, if souls lose all their knowledge on being fettered with the body, they must experience something of such a nature that it makes them bec

 28. and yet, that we may not be as ignorant when we leave you as before , let us hear from you how you say that the soul, on being enwrapt in an earth

 29. now, since it is so, cease, i pray you, cease to rate trifling and unimportant things at immense values. cease to place man in the upper ranks, si

 30. but will he not be terrified by the punishments in hades, of which we have heard, assuming also, as they do , many forms of torture? and who will

 31. a certain neutral character, then, and undecided and doubtful nature of the soul, has made room for philosophy, and found out a reason for its bei

 32. since these things are so, and we have been taught by the greatest teacher that souls are set not far from the gaping jaws of death that they can

 33. seeing that the fear of death, that is, the ruin of our souls, menaces us, in what are we not acting, as we all are wont, from a sense of what wil

 34. since this is the case, what, pray, is so unfair as that we should be looked on by you as silly in that readiness of belief at which you scoff , w

 35. but, say my opponents , if souls are mortal and of neutral character, how can they from their neutral properties become immortal? if we should say

 36. but the gods are said to be immortal. not by nature, then, but by the good-will and favour of god their father. in the same way, then, in which th

 37. but if souls were, as is said, the lord’s children, and begotten by the supreme power, nothing would have been wanting to make them perfect, as th

 38. for, to begin with what is important, what advantage is it to the world that the mightiest kings are here? what, that there are tyrants, lords, an

 39. but perhaps, some one will urge , the ruler of the world sent hither souls sprung from himself for this purpose—a very rash thing for a man to say

 40. was it for this he sent souls hither , that while the other creatures are fed by what springs up spontaneously, and is produced without being sown

 41. was it for this he sent souls, that they which shortly before had been gentle and ignorant of what it is to be moved by fierce passions, should bu

 42. was it for this he sent souls, that some should infest the highways and roads, others ensnare the unwary, forge false wills, prepare poisoned drau

 43. what say you, o offspring and descendants of the supreme deity? did these souls, then, wise, and sprung from the first causes, become acquainted w

 44. but, you say, they came of their own accord, not sent by their lord. and where was the almighty creator, where the authority of his royal and exal

 45. but let this monstrous and impious fancy be put far from us , that almighty god, the creator and framer, the author of things great and invisible,

 46. but, to say the same things again and again, let this belief, so monstrous and impious, be put far from us , that god, who preserves all things, t

 47. but, you say, if god is not the parent and father of souls, by what sire have they been begotten, and how have they been produced? if you wish to

 48. here, too, in like manner, when we deny that souls are the offspring of god supreme, it does not necessarily follow that we are bound to declare f

 49. but, you will say, there are good men also in the world,—wise, upright, of faultless and purest morals. we raise no question as to whether there e

 50. you say that there are good men in the human race and perhaps, if we compare them with the very wicked, we may be led to believe that there are.

 51. but you laugh at our reply, because, while we deny that souls are of royal descent, we do not, on the other hand, say in turn from what causes and

 52. and yet, lest you should suppose that none but yourselves can make use of conjectures and surmises, we too are able to bring them forward as well,

 53. since this, then, is the case, we do nothing out of place or foolish in believing that the souls of men are of a neutral character, inasmuch as th

 54. can, then, anything be made, some one will say, without god’s will? we must consider carefully, and examine with no little pains, lest, while we t

 55. but when, overcome, we agree that there are these things, and expressly allow that all human affairs are full of them, they will next ask, why, th

 56. as for all the other things which are usually dwelt upon in inquiries and discussions—from what parents they have sprung, or by whom they are prod

 57. while, then, this is the case, and it cannot but be that only one of all these opinions is true, they all nevertheless make use of arguments in st

 58. what, then, are we alone ignorant? do we alone not know who is the creator, who the former of souls, what cause fashioned man, whence ills have br

 59. if that which it has pleased us to know is within reach, and if such knowledge is open to all, declare to us, and say how and by what means shower

 60. seeing, then, that the origin, the cause, the reason of so many and so important things, escapes you yourselves also, and that you can neither say

 61. what business of yours is it, he says, to examine, to inquire who made man what is the origin of souls who devised the causes of ills whether t

 62. and be not deceived or deluded with vain hopes by that which is said by some ignorant and most presumptuous pretenders, that they are born of god,

 63. but if, my opponents say, christ was sent by god for this end, that he might deliver unhappy souls from ruin and destruction, of what crime were f

 64. but, my opponents ask , if christ came as the saviour of men, as you say, why does he not, with uniform benevolence, free all without exception? i

 65. nay, my opponent says , if god is powerful, merciful, willing to save us, let him change our dispositions, and compel us to trust in his promises.

 66. so, then, even if you are pure, and have been cleansed from every stain of vice, have won over and charmed those powers not to shut the ways again

 67. therefore, when you urge against us that we turn away from the religion of past ages , it is fitting that you should examine why it is done, not w

 68. on the alban hill, it was not allowed in ancient times to sacrifice any but snow-white bulls: have you not changed that custom and religious obser

 69. but our name is new, we are told , and the religion which we follow arose but a few days ago. granting for the present that what you urge against

 70. but why do i speak of these trivial things? the immortal gods themselves, whose temples you now enter with reverence , whose deity you suppliantly

 71. but our rites are new yours are ancient, and of excessive antiquity, we are told . and what help does that give you, or how does it damage our ca

 72. but your religion precedes ours by many years, and is therefore, you say , truer, because it has been supported by the authority of antiquity. and

 73. but are we alone in this position? what! have you not introduced into the number of your gods the egyptian deities named serapis and isis, since t

 74. and why, my opponent says , did god, the ruler and lord of the universe , determine that a saviour, christ, should be sent to you from the heights

 75. you may object and rejoin, why was the saviour sent forth so late? in unbounded, eternal ages, we reply , nothing whatever should be spoken of as

 76. inasmuch then, you say, as you serve the almighty god, and trust that he cares for your safety and salvation, why does he suffer you to be exposed

 77. therefore that bitterness of persecution of which you speak is our deliverance and not persecution, and our ill-treatment will not bring evil upon

 78. wherefore, o men, refrain from obstructing what you hope for by vain questions nor should you, if anything is otherwise than you think, trust you

 Book iii.

 Book iii.

 2. let us now return to the order from which we were a little ago compelled to diverge, that our defence may not, through its being too long broken of

 3. and as in the kingdoms of earth we are in no wise constrained expressly to do reverence to those who form the royal family as well as to the sovere

 4. but we do not purpose delaying further on this part of the subject, lest we seem desirous to stir up most violent strife, and engage in agitating c

 5. but let it be assumed that there are these gods, as you wish and believe, and are persuaded let them be called also by those names by which the co

 6. and yet let no one think that we are perversely determined not to submit to the other deities, whoever they are! for we lift up pious minds, and st

 7. but why should i say that men seek from him subtleties of expression and splendour of diction, when i know that there are many who avoid and flee f

 8. and yet, that no thoughtless person may raise a false accusation against us, as though we believed god whom we worship to be male,—for this reason,

 9. what, then, shall we say? that gods beget and are begotten? and that therefore they have received organs of generation, that they might be able to

 10. what say you, ye holy and pure guardians of religion? have the gods, then, sexes and are they disfigured by those parts, the very mention of whos

 11. and you dare to charge us with offending the gods, although, on examination, it is found that the ground of offence is most clearly in yourselves,

 12. thus far of sex. now let us come to the appearance and shapes by which you believe that the gods above have been represented, with which, indeed,

 13. but it is not enough that you limit the gods by forms:—you even confine them to the human figure, and with even less decency enclose them in earth

 14. are, then, the divine bodies free from these deformities? and since they do not eat the food of men, are we to believe that, like children, they a

 15. does any man at all possessed of judgment, believe that hairs and down grow on the bodies of the gods? that among them age is distinguished? and t

 16. but you will, perhaps, say that the gods have indeed other forms, and that you have given the appearance of men to them merely by way of honour, a

 17. but, they say, if you are not satisfied with our opinion, do you point out, tell us yourselves, what is the deity’s form. if you wish to hear the

 18. what, then, some one will say, does the deity not hear? does he not speak? does he not see what is put before him? has he not sight? he may in his

 19. if you are willing to hear our conclusions, then learn that we are so far from attributing bodily shape to the deity, that we fear to ascribe to s

 20. this, then, this matter of forms and sexes, is the first affront which you, noble advocates in sooth, and pious writers, offer to your deities. bu

 21. and, i ask, what reason is there, what unavoidable necessity, what occasion for the gods knowing and being acquainted with these handicrafts as th

 22. you err, my opponent says , and are deceived for the gods are not themselves artificers, but suggest these arts to ingenious men, and teach morta

 23. but you will, perhaps, say that the gods are not artificers, but that they preside over these arts, and have their oversight nay, that under thei

 24. no one, says my opponent, makes supplication to the tutelar deities, and they therefore withhold their usual favours and help. cannot the gods, th

 25. unxia, my opponent says , presides over the anointing of door-posts cinxia over the loosening of the zone the most venerable victa and potua at

 26. we shall not here mention laverna, goddess of thieves, the bellonæ, discordiæ, furiæ and we pass by in utter silence the unpropitious deities who

 27. now we may apply this very argument to venus in exactly the same way. for if, as you maintain and believe, she fills men’s minds with lustful thou

 28. can any man, who has accepted the first principles even of reason, be found to mar or dishonour the unchanging nature of deity with morals so vile

 29. we might, however, even yet be able to receive from you these thoughts, most full of wicked falsehoods, if it were not that you yourselves, in bri

 30. but what shall we say of jove himself, whom the wise have repeatedly asserted to be the sun, driving a winged chariot, followed by a crowd of deit

 31. aristotle, a man of most powerful intellect, and distinguished for learning, as granius tells, shows by plausible arguments that minerva is the mo

 32. mercury, also, has been named as though he were a kind of go-between and because conversation passes between two speakers, and is exchanged by th

 33. we here leave vulcan unnoticed, to avoid prolixity whom you all declare to be fire, with one consenting voice. we pass by venus, named because lu

 34. some of your learned men —men, too, who do not chatter merely because their humour leads them—maintain that diana, ceres, luna, are but one deity

 35. men worthy to be remembered in the study of philosophy, who have been raised by your praises to its highest place, declare, with commendable earne

 36. if we sought to subvert the belief in your gods in so many ways, by so many arguments, no one would doubt that, mad with rage and fury, you would

 37. we are told by mnaseas that the muses are the daughters of tellus and cœlus others declare that they are jove’s by his wife memory, or mens some

 38. how, then, can you give to religion its whole power, when you fall into error about the gods themselves? or summon us to their solemn worship, whi

 39. there are some, besides, who assert that those who from being men became gods, are denoted by this name,—as hercules, romulus, æsculapius, liber,

 40. nigidius taught that the dii penates were neptune and apollo, who once, on fixed terms, girt ilium with walls. he himself again, in his sixteenth

 41. we can, if it is thought proper, speak briefly of the lares also, whom the mass think to be the gods of streets and ways, because the greeks name

 42. it is a vast and endless task to examine each kind separately, and make it evident even from your religious books that you neither hold nor believ

 43. for if this deity requires a black, that a white skin if sacrifice must be made to this one with veiled, to that with uncovered head this one is

 44. wherefore, if you are assured that in the lofty palaces of heaven there dwells, there is, that multitude of deities whom you specify, you should m

 Book iv.

 Book iv.

 2. for we—but, perhaps, you would rob and deprive us of common-sense—feel and perceive that none of these has divine power, or possesses a form of its

 3. with regard, indeed, to your bringing forward to us other bands of unknown gods, we cannot determine whether you do that seriously, and from a beli

 4. pellonia is a goddess mighty to drive back enemies. whose enemies, say, if it is convenient? opposing armies meet, and fighting together, hand to h

 5. the sinister deities preside over the regions on the left hand only, and are opposed to those on the right. but with what reason this is said, or w

 6. lateranus, as you say, is the god and genius of hearths, and received this name because men build that kind of fireplace of unbaked bricks. what th

 7. does venus militaris, also, preside over the evil-doing of camps, and the debaucheries of young men? is there one perfica, also, of the crowd of de

 8. say, i pray you,—that peta, puta, patella may graciously favour you,—if there were no bees at all on the earth then, or if we men were born without

 9. what then? you say do you declare that these gods exist nowhere in the world, and have been created by unreal fancies? not we alone, but truth its

 10. but if you urge that bones, different kinds of honey, thresholds, and all the other things which we have either run over rapidly, or, to avoid pro

 11. what say you, o fathers of new religions, and powers? do you cry out, and complain that these gods are dishonoured by us, and neglected with profa

 12. but let them be true, as you maintain, yet will you have us also believe that mellonia, for example, introduces herself into the entrails, or lime

 13. or, if you refuse to believe this on account of its novelty, how can you know whether there is not some one, who comes in place of all whom you in

 14. your theologians, then, and authors on unknown antiquity, say that in the universe there are three joves, one of whom has æther for his father an

 15. and lest it should seem tedious and prolix to wish to consider each person singly, the same theologians say that there are four vulcans and three

 16. for suppose that it had occurred to us, moved either by suitable influence or violent fear of you, to worship minerva, for example, with the right

 17. we may say the very same things of the mercuries, the suns,—indeed of all the others whose numbers you increase and multiply. but it is sufficient

 18. but some one on the opposite side says, how do we know whether the theologians have written what is certain and well known, or set forth a wanton

 19. but perhaps these things will turn out to be false, and what you say to be true. by what proof, by what evidence, will it be shown ? for since bot

 20. but you, on the contrary, forgetting how great their dignity and grandeur are, associate with them a birth, and impute to them a descent, which me

 21. but perhaps this foul pollution may be less apparent in the rest. did, then, the ruler of the heavens, the father of gods and men, who, by the mot

 22. and, not content to have ascribed these carnal unions to the venerable saturn, you affirm that the king of the world himself begot children even m

 23. men, though prone to lust, and inclined, through weakness of character, to yield to the allurements of sensual pleasures, still punish adultery by

 24. if you will open your minds’ eyes, and see the real truth without gratifying any private end, you will find that the causes of all the miseries by

 25. did we say that venus was a courtezan, deified by a cyprian king named cinyras? who reported that the palladium was formed from the remains of pel

 26. but what shall i say of the desires with which it is written in your books, and contained in your writers, that the holy immortals lusted after wo

 27. but among you, is it only the males who lust and has the female sex preserved its purity? is it not proved in your books that tithonus was loved

 28. for where there are weddings, marriages, births, nurses, arts, and weaknesses where there are liberty and slavery where there are wounds, slaugh

 29. and here, indeed, we can show that all those whom you represent to us as and call gods, were but men, by quoting either euhemerus of acragas, whos

 30. but in the discussion which we at present maintain, we do not undertake this trouble or service, to show and declare who all these were. but this

 31. we wish, then, to question you, and invite you to answer a short question, whether you think it a greater offence to sacrifice to them no victims,

 32. but all these things, they say, are the fictions of poets, and games arranged for pleasure. it is not credible, indeed, that men by no means thoug

 33. your gods, it is recorded, dine on celestial couches, and in golden chambers, drink, and are at last soothed by the music of the lyre, and singing

 34. but why do i complain that you have disregarded the insults offered to the other deities? that very jupiter, whose name you should not have spoken

 35. but is it only poets whom you have thought proper to allow to invent unseemly tales about the gods, and to turn them shamefully into sport? what d

 36. but this crime is not enough: the persons of the most sacred gods are mixed up with farces also, and scurrilous plays. and that the idle onlookers

 37. but this is the state of the case, that as you are exceedingly strong in war and in military power, you think you excel in knowledge of the truth

 Book v.

 Book v.

 2. what the mind should take up first, what last, or what it should pass by silently, it is not easy to say, nor is it made clear by any amount of ref

 3. but let us admit that, as is said, jupiter has himself appointed against himself ways and means by which his own declared purposes might fittingly

 4. but you will perhaps say that the king was a diviner. could he be more so than jupiter himself? but for a mortal’s anticipating what jupiter—whom h

 5. in timotheus, who was no mean mythologist, and also in others equally well informed, the birth of the great mother of the gods, and the origin of h

 6. now, when it had been often considered in the councils of the gods, by what means it might be possible either to weaken or to curb his audacity, li

 7. then midas, king of pessinus, wishing to withdraw the youth from so disgraceful an intimacy, resolves to give him his own daughter in marriage, and

 8. if some one, despising the deities, and furious with a savagely sacrilegious spirit, had set himself to blaspheme your gods, would he dare to say a

 9. but why do we speak of your having bemired the great mother of the gods with the filth of earth, when you have not been able for but a little time

 10. but you will perhaps say the human race shuns and execrates such unions among the gods there is no incest. and why, then , did his mother resist

 11. there was doubt in the councils of the gods how that unyielding and fierce violence was to be subdued and when there was no other way, they had r

 12. would any one say this about the gods who had even a very low opinion of them? or, if they were taken up with such affairs, considerations, cares,

 13. through her bosom, we are told, nana conceived a son by an apple. the opinion is self-consistent for where rocks and hard stones bring forth, the

 14. what say you, o races and nations, given up to such beliefs? when these things are brought forward, are you not ashamed and confounded to say thin

 15. we might long ago have urged you to ponder this, were it not foolish to ask proofs of such things, as well as to say them. but this story is false

 16. and yet how can you assert the falsehood of this story, when the very rites which you celebrate throughout the year testify that you believe these

 17. or if the things which we say are not so, declare, say yourselves—those effeminate and delicate men whom we see among you in the sacred rites of t

 18. the greatness of the subject, and our duty to those on their defence also, demand that we should in like manner hunt up the other forms of basenes

 19. we shall pass by the wild bacchanalia also, which are named in greek omophagia, in which with seeming frenzy and the loss of your senses you twine

 20. it was our purpose to leave unnoticed those mysteries also into which phrygia is initiated, and all that race, were it not that the name of jupite

 21. jupiter is troubled enough, being overwhelmed with fear, and cannot find means to soothe the rage of his violated mother . he pours forth prayers,

 22. i do not think it necessary here also with many words to go through each part, and show how many base and unseemly things there are in each partic

 23. i should wish, therefore, to see jupiter, the father of the gods, who ever controls the world and men, adorned with the horns of an ox, shaking hi

 24. but, my opponent says , these are not the rites of our state. who, pray, says this, or who repeats it? is he roman, gaul, spaniard, african, germa

 25. in her wanderings on that quest, she reaches the confines of eleusis as well as other countries —that is the name of a canton in attica. at that t

 26. if any one perchance thinks that we are speaking wicked calumnies, let him take the hooks of the thracian soothsayer, which you speak of as of div

 27. are then your deities carried off by force, and do they seize by violence, as their holy and hidden mysteries relate? do they enter into marriages

 28. i confess that i have long been hesitating, looking on every side, shuffling, doubling tellene perplexities while i am ashamed to mention those a

 29. now, to prevent any one from thinking that we have devised what is so impious, we do not call upon him to believe heraclitus as a witness, nor to

 30. i confess that, in reflecting on such monstrous stories in my own mind, i have long been accustomed to wonder that you dare to speak of those as a

 31. but you who assert that you are the defenders and propagators of their immortality, have you passed by, have you left untouched, any one of them,

 32. but you err, says my opponent , and are mistaken, and show, even in criticising these things, that you are rather ignorant, unlearned, and boorish

 33. these are all quirks, as is evident, and quibbles with which they are wont to bolster up weak cases before a jury nay, rather, to speak more trul

 34. but, agreeing with you that in all these stories stags are spoken of instead of iphigenias, yet, how are you sure, when you either explain or unfo

 35. finally, if you think it right, returning to our inquiry, we ask this of you, whether you think that all stories about the gods, that is, without

 36. but you will perhaps say that these allegories are not found in the whole body of the story, but that some parts are written so as to be understoo

 37. let us examine, then, what is said in this way. in the grove of henna, my opponent says, the maiden proserpine was once gathering flowers: this is

 38. either, then, they must all have been written and put forward allegorically, and the whole should be pointed out to us or nothing has been so wri

 39. whence, then, do we prove that all these narratives are records of events? from the solemn rites and mysteries of initiation, it is clear, whether

 40. and yet, even if we grant you that this is the case, that is, even if the narratives give utterance to one thing in words, but mean something else

 41. it was once usual, in speaking allegorically, to conceal under perfectly decent ideas, and clothe with the respectability of decency, what was bas

 42. but you will perhaps say, for this only is left which you may think can be brought forward by you, that the gods do not wish their mysteries to be

 43. but what the meaning of this is, is already clear to all. for because you are ashamed of such writers and histories, and do not see that these thi

 44. but if you come to the conclusion that these fables have been written allegorically, what is to be done with the rest, which we see cannot be forc

 45. judge fairly, and you are deserving of censure in this, that in your common conversation you name mars when you mean fighting, neptune when you me

 Book vi.

 Book vi.

 2. for—that you may learn what are our sentiments and opinions about that race—we think that they—if only they are true gods, that the same things may

 3. but, we are told , we rear no temples to them, and do not worship their images we do not slay victims in sacrifice, we do not offer incense and li

 4. but, says my opponent , it is not for this reason that we assign temples to the gods as though we wished to ward off from them drenching storms of

 5. now, if this be not the case, all hope of help is taken away, and it will be doubtful whether you are heard by the gods or not, if ever you perform

 6. what can you say as to this, that it is attested by the writings of authors, that many of these temples which have been raised with golden domes an

 7. but why do i speak of these trifles? what man is there who is ignorant that in the capitol of the imperial people is the sepulchre of tolus vulcent

 8. we have therefore—as i suppose—shown sufficiently, that to the immortal gods temples have been either reared in vain, or built in consequence of in

 9. we worship the gods, you say, by means of images. what then? without these, do the gods not know that they are worshipped, and will they not think

 10. and whence, finally, do you know whether all these images which you form and put in the place of the immortal gods reproduce and bear a resemblanc

 11. you laugh because in ancient times the persians worshipped rivers, as is told in the writings which hand down these things to memory the arabians

 12. from such causes as these this also has followed, with your connivance, that the wanton fancy of artists has found full scope in representing the

 13. but why do i laugh at the sickles and tridents which have been given to the gods? why at the horns, hammers, and caps, when i know that certain im

 14. we would here, as if all nations on the earth were present, make one speech, and pour into the ears of them all, words which should be heard in co

 15. lo, if some one were to place before you copper in the lump, and not formed into any works of art , masses of unwrought silver, and gold not fashi

 16. and so unmindful and forgetful of what the substance and origin of the images are, you, men, rational beings and endowed with the gift of wisdom a

 17. but you err, says my opponent , and are mistaken, for we do not consider either copper, or gold and silver, or those other materials of which stat

 18. what then? do the gods remain always in such substances, and do they not go away to any place, even though summoned by the most momentous affairs?

 19. the gods dwell in images—each wholly in one, or divided into parts, and into members? for neither is it possible that there can be at one time one

 20. and yet, o you—if it is plain and clear to you that the gods live, and that the inhabitants of heaven dwell in the inner parts of the images, why

 21. they say that antiochus of cyzicum took from its shrine a statue of jupiter made of gold ten cubits high , and set up in its place one made of cop

 22. but you will perhaps say that the gods do not trouble themselves about these losses, and do not think that there is sufficient cause for them to c

 23. but perhaps, as you say, the goddesses took the greatest pleasure in these lewd and lustful insults, and did not think that an action requiring ve

 24. here also the advocates of images are wont to say this also, that the ancients knew well that images have no divine nature, and that there is no s

 25. for what grandeur—if you look at the truth without any prejudice —is there in these images of which they speak, that the men of old should have ha

 26. o dreadful forms of terror and frightful bugbears on account of which the human race was to be benumbed for ever, to attempt nothing in its utter

 Book vii.

 Book vii.

 1b. [migne 7.1] what, then, some one will say, do you think that no sacrifices at all should be offered? to answer you not with our own, but with your

 2. who are the true gods? you say. to answer you in common and simple language, we do not know for how can we know who those are whom we have never s

 3. so, then, if these things are so, we desire to learn this, first, from you—what is the cause, what the reason, that you offer them sacrifices and

 4. if perchance it is not this, are victims not slain in sacrifice to the gods, and cast upon their flaming altars to give them some pleasure and deli

 5. we have next to examine the argument which we hear continually coming from the lips of the common people, and find embedded in popular conviction,

 6. but let us allow, as you wish, that the gods are accustomed to such disturbance, and that sacrifices are offered and sacred solemnities performed t

 7. but neither do i demand that this should be said, or that i should be told what causes the gods have for their anger against men, that having taken

 8. but this, as i said, i do not mention, but allow it to pass away in silence. this one thing i ask, above all, what reason is there if i kill a pig,

 9. so, if some ox, or any animal you please, which is slain to mitigate and appease the fury of the deities, were to take a man’s voice and speak thes

 10. but perhaps some one will say, we give to the gods sacrifices and other gifts, that, being made willing in a measure to grant our prayers, they ma

 11. lastly, if the gods drive away sorrow and grief, if they bestow joy and pleasure, how are there in the world so many and so wretched men, whence c

 12. or the gods of heaven should be said to be ungrateful if, while they have power to prevent it, they suffer an unhappy race to be involved in so ma

 13. we have shown sufficiently, as i suppose, that victims, and the things which go along with them, are offered in vain to the immortal gods, because

 14. but all this conceding and ascribing of honour about which we are speaking are met with among men alone, whom their natural weakness and love of s

 15. what then! some one will say, do you think that no honour should be given to the gods at all? if you propose to us gods such as they should be if

 16. what say you, o you—! is that foul smell, then, which is given forth and emitted by burning hides, by bones, by bristles, by the fleeces of lambs,

 17. lo, if dogs—for a case must be imagined, in order that things may be seen more clearly—if dogs, i say, and asses, and along with them water-wagtai

 18. and as we are now speaking of the animals sacrificed, what cause, what reason is there, that while the immortal gods—for, so far as we are concern

 19. but you err, says my opponent , and fall into mistakes for in sacrificing female victims to the female deities, males to the male deities , there

 20. but let us agree, as you wish, that there are both infernal regions and manes , and that some gods or other dwell in these by no means favourable

 21. but this, too, it is fitting that we should here learn from you: if a goat be slain to jupiter, which is usually sacrificed to father liber and me

 22. if, then, these things are vain, and are not supported by any reason, the very offering of sacrifices also is idle. for how can that which follows

 23. for as to that which we hear said by you, that some of the gods are good, that others, on the contrary, are bad, and rather inclined to indulge in

 24. be it so let it be conceded that these most unfortunate cattle are not sacrificed in the temples of the gods without some religious obligation, a

 25. for if whatever is done by men, and especially in religion, should have its causes,—and nothing should be done without a reason in all that men do

 26. we have now to say a few words about incense and wine, for these, too, are connected and mixed up with your ceremonies, and are used largely in yo

 27. finally, that we may always abide by the rule and definition by which it has been shown and determined that whatever is done by man must have its

 28. will any one say that incense is given to the celestials, for this reason, that it has a sweet smell, and imparts a pleasant sensation to the nose

 29. wine is used along with incense and of this, in like manner, we ask an explanation why it is poured upon it when burning. for if a reason is not

 30. but, says my opponent , you are insulting us without reason, for we do not pour forth wine to the gods of heaven for these reasons, as if we suppo

 31. it is worth while to bring forward the words themselves also, which, when wine is offered, it is customary to use and make supplication with: “let

 32. but let there be, as you wish, honour in wine and in incense, let the auger and displeasure of the deities be appeased by the immolation and slaug

 33. but the games which you celebrate, called floralia and megalensia , and all the rest which you wish to be sacred, and to be considered religious d

 34. whence, therefore, have these vicious opinions flowed, or from what causes have they sprung? from this it is clear, in great measure, that men are

 35. come now: as the discussion has been prolonged and led to these points, let us, bringing forward what each has to say, decide by a brief compariso

 36. you say that some of them cause dissensions, that there are others who inflict pestilences, others who excite love and madness, others, even, who

 37. since these things are so, and since there is so great difference between our opinions and yours, where are we, on the one hand, impious, or you p

 38. if the immortal gods cannot be angry, says my opponent , and their nature is not agitated or troubled by any passions, what do the histories, the

 39. we have come, then, in speaking, to the very point of the case, to that on which the question hinges, to the real and most intimate part of the di

 40. but neither shall we deny that we know this as well, that once on a time, when the state and republic were in difficulties, caused either by a ter

 41. all these things which have been mentioned, have indeed a miraculous appearance,—rather, they are believed to have it,—if they come to men’s ears

 42. and what pollution or abomination could have flowed from this, either to make the circus less pure, or to defile jupiter, seeing that in a few mom

 43. if jupiter sought to have his games celebrated, and that afresh, with greater care if he honestly sought to restore the people to health, and tha

 44. in like manner we might go through the other narratives, and show that in these also, and in expositions of these, something far different from wh

 45. and as we read that he used food also, by which bodily existence is kept up, he has a large gullet, that he may gulp down the food sought for with

 46. but, says my opponent , if he was not a god, why, after he left the ship, and crawled to the island in the tiber, did he immediately become invisi

 47. but if that snake was not a present deity, says my opponent , why, after its arrival, was the violence of the plague overcome, and health restored

 48. but some one will perhaps say that the care of such a god has been denied to later and following ages, because the ways in which men now live are

 49. but the great mother, also, says my opponent , being summoned from phrygian pessinus in precisely the same way by command of the seers, was a caus

 50. what shall we say then? was hannibal, that famous carthaginian, an enemy strong and powerful, before whom the fortunes of rome trembled in doubt a

 51. but suppose that the deity was present in that very stone, as you demand should be believed: and what mortal is there, although he may be credulou

19. But perhaps these things will turn out to be false, and what you say to be true. By what proof, by what evidence, will it be shown? For since both parties are men, both those who have said the one thing and those who have said the other, and on both sides the discussion was of doubtful matters, it is arrogant to say that that is true which seems so to you, but that that which offends your feelings manifests wantonness and falsehood. By the laws of the human race, and the associations of mortality itself, when you read and hear, That god was born of this father and of that mother, do you not feel in your mind940    Lit., “does it not touch the feeling of your mind.” that something is said which belongs to man, and relates to the meanness of our earthly race? Or, while you think that it is so,941    Ursinus would supply eos—“that they are so.” do you conceive no anxiety lest you should in something offend the gods themselves, whoever they are, because you believe that it is owing to filthy intercourse…942    Atque ex seminis, actu, or jactu, as the edd. except Hild. read it. that they have reached the light they knew not of, thanks to lewdness? For we, lest any one should chance to think that we are ignorant of, do not know, what befits the majesty of that name, assuredly943    The ms. reads dignitati-s aut; corrected, as above, d. sane, in the first five edd., Oberthür, and Orelli. [John x. 35.] think that the gods should not know birth; or if they are born at all, we hold and esteem that the Lord and Prince of the universe, by ways which He knew Himself, sent them forth spotless, most pure, undefiled, ignorant of sexual pollution,944    Quæsit fœditas ista coeundi. and brought to the full perfection of their natures as soon as they were begotten?945    Lit., “as far as to themselves, their first generation being completed.”

1038B XIX. Nisi forte haec falsa, et ea, quae a vobis dicuntur, erunt vera. Quo argumento, quo signo? Cum enim homines utrique, et qui haec, et illa commentati sunt, fuerint, et de rebus incertis ab utraque sit disputatum parte: arrogantis est dicere, id quod tibi placeat esse verum, quod vero animum laedit, id libidinis et falsitatis arguere. Per humani generis jura, atque ipsius mortalitatis consortia, cum auditis et legitis: Ex illo, atque ex illa matre Deus ille est proditus: nonne animi vestri sensus tangit humanum nescio quid dici, et ex terreni generis humilitate proficiscens? aut cum esse arbitramini vos ita, sollicitudinem concipitis nullam, ne offensionis aliquid 1038C apud ipsos, quicumque sunt, contrahatis deos: 1039A quod ex turpi concubitu creditis, atque ex seminis jactu ignoratam sibi ad lucem beneficiis obscoenitatis exisse? Nos enim, ne quis forte existimet ignorare, nescire, quid istius nominis conveniat dignitati, sane nativitatis expertes deos esse oportere censemus: aut si aliquos ortus habent, a Domino rerum ac principe, rationibus quas ipse novit, ipsos ducimus atque existimamus esse missos , immaculatos, castissimos, puros, nescientes quae sit foeditas ista coeundi, et usque ad illos ipsos principali procreatione finita.