Dialogus cum Heraclide

A DISCUSSION OF ORIGEN WITH HERACLIDES AND THE BISHOPS WITH HIM CONCERNING THE FATHER AND THE SON AND THE SOUL.

1 When a discussion was initiated by the bishops present concerning the faith of Heraclides the bishop, so that he might confess before all how he believes, and when each had said what occurred to him and had asked questions, Heraclides the bishop said: “I also believe what the divine scriptures say: ‘In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.’ Do we therefore agree in faith on this point and believe that Christ took flesh, that he was born, that he ascended into heaven in the flesh in which he rose, that he sits at the right hand of the Father, from there being about to come and ‘judge the living and the dead,’ God and man?” Origen said: “Since an inquiry is now taking place, to say something in the place of inquiry, I shall speak. The whole church is present and listening. A church ought not to have a difference from another church in knowledge, since you are not a false church. I beseech you, Papa Heraclides: God is the Almighty, the unbegotten, who is over all, who made all things; does this please you?” Heraclides said: “It pleases me; for so I also believe.” Origen said: “Christ Jesus, ‘being in the form of God,’ being other than the God in whose ‘form’ he was, was he God before he came into a body or not?” Heraclides said: “He was God before.” Origen said: “Was he God before he came into a body or not?” Heraclides said: “Yes.” Origen said: “A different God from this God in whose ‘form’ he was?” 2 Heraclides said: “Clearly of another, and being <in> the form of that one, he is of the one who created all things.” Origen said: “Therefore, the only-begotten of God, the Son of God, ‘the firstborn of all creation,’ was God, and do we not hesitate in one respect to say two Gods, and in another respect to say one God?” Heraclides said: “What you say is clear; but we say that God is the Almighty, God without beginning, without end, containing all things and not contained, and that his Word is the Son of the living God, God and man, through whom all things were made, God according to the spirit, but man in that he was born of Mary.” Origen said: “You did not seem to have said what I asked. Clarify it, then; for perhaps I did not follow. Is the Father God?” Heraclides said: “Certainly.” Origen said: “Is the Son other than the Father?” Heraclides said: “For how can he be a son, if he is also a father?” Origen said: “The Son, being other than the Father, is he also God?” Heraclides said: “He also is God.” Origen said: “And do two Gods become one?” Heraclides said: “Yes.” Origen said: “Do we confess two Gods?” Heraclides said: “Yes; the power is one.” Origen said: “But since our brothers are scandalized at there being two Gods, the doctrine must be treated, and <it is necessary> to show in what sense they are two, and in what sense the two are one God. And the divine scriptures have taught that many twos are one, and not only two but also some that are more than two, and even if many more in number they have taught that they are one. The present task is not to take up a 3 problem and pass over it and string words together, but to chew it over, as it were, like meat, for the sake of the simpler ones, and to place the word little by little into the ears of the hearers. Therefore, according to the scriptures, many twos are said to be one. Which scriptures? Adam is other, the woman other. Adam is other than the woman and the woman is other than the man; and it is said immediately in Genesis that the two are one: ‘For the two shall be one flesh.’ Therefore it is possible sometimes for two to be one flesh. But observe for me that in the case of Adam and Eve it is not said that the two will be one spirit

Dialogus cum Heraclide

ΩΡΙΓΕΝΟΥΣ ∆ΙΑΛΕΚΤΟΣ ΠΡΟΣ ΗΡΑΚΛΕΙ∆ΑΝ ΚΑΙ ΤΟΥΣ ΣΥΝ ΑΥΤΩ ΕΠΙΣΚΟΠΟΥΣ ΠΕΡΙ ΠΑΤΡΟΣ ΚΑΙ ΥΙΟΥ ΚΑΙ ΨΥΧΗΣ.

1 Λόγων κινηθέντων ὑπὸ τῶν παρόντων ἐπισκόπων περὶ τῆς πίστεως Ἡρακλείδα τοῦ ἐπισκόπου, ἵνα ἐπὶ πάντων ὁμολογήσῃ τὸ πῶς πιστεύει, καὶ ἑκάστου εἰπόντος τὸ παραστὰν αὐτῷ καὶ πυθομένου, Ἡρακλεί δης ἐπίσκοπος εἶπεν· «Καὶ ἐγὼ πιστεύω ἅπερ αἱ θεῖαι γραφαὶ λέγουσιν· «Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος. Οὗτος ἦν ἐν ἀρχῇ πρὸς τὸν Θεόν. Πάντα δι' αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν». Ἆρα οὖν τῇ πίστει συμφερόμεθα καὶ κατὰ τοῦτο καὶ πιστεύομεν ὅτι εἴληφε σάρκα ὁ Χριστός, ὅτι ἐγεννήθη, ὅτι ἀνῆλθεν εἰς τοὺς οὐρανοὺς ἐν τῇ σαρκὶ ᾗ ἀνέστη, ὅτι κάθηται ἐν δεξιᾷ τοῦ Πατρὸς μέλλων ἐκεῖθεν ἔρχεσθαι καὶ «κρίνειν ζῶντας καὶ νεκρούς», θεὸς καὶ ἄνθρωπος.» Ὠριγένης εἶπεν· «Ἐπεὶ ἅπαξ ἀνάκρισις γίνεται εἰπεῖν τι εἰς τὸν τόπον τῆς ἀνακρίσεως, ἐρῶ. Ὅλη ἡ ἐκκλησία πάρεστιν ἀκούουσα. Οὐκ ὀφείλει ἐκκλησία ἐκκλησίας διαφορὰν ἔχειν ἐν γνώσει, ἐπεὶ οὐκ ἐστὲ ἐκκλησία ἡ ψευδομένη. Παρακαλῶ σε, πάπα Ἡρα κλείδα· Θεός ἐστιν ὁ παντοκράτωρ, ὁ ἀγένητος, ὁ ἐπὶ πᾶσιν ποιήσας τὰ ὅλα· ἀρέσκει τοῦτο;» Ἡρακλείδης εἶπεν· «Ἀρέσκει· οὕτω γὰρ κἀγὼ πιστεύω.» Ὠριγένης εἶπεν· «Χριστὸς Ἰησοῦς «ἐν μορφῇ Θεοῦ ὑπάρχων», ἕτερος ὢν παρὰ τὸν Θεὸν οὗ «ἐν μορφῇ» ὑπῆρχεν, Θεὸς ἦν πρὸ τοῦ ἔλθῃ εἰς σῶμα ἢ οὔ;» Ἡρακλείδης εἶπεν· «Θεὸς πρὸ ἦν.» Ὠριγένης εἶπεν· «Θεὸς ἦν πρὶν ἔλθῃ εἰς σῶμα ἢ οὔ;» Ἡρακλείδης εἶπεν· «Ναί.» Ὠριγένῃς εἶπεν· «Ἕτερος Θεὸς παρὰ τοῦτον τὸν Θεὸν οὗ «ἐν μορφῇ» ὑπῆρχεν αὐτός;» 2 Ἡρακλείδης εἶπεν· «∆ηλονότι ἄλλου τινός, καὶ ὢν <ἐν> μορφῇ ἐκείνου ἐστὶν τοῦ πάντα κτίσαντος.» Ὠριγένης εἶπεν· «Οὐκοῦν Θεὸς ἦν Θεοῦ υἱὸς ὁ μονογενὴς τοῦ Θεοῦ, «ὁ πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως», καὶ οὐ δεισιδαιμονοῦμεν πῇ μὲν εἰπεῖν δύο Θεούς, πῇ δὲ εἰπεῖν ἕνα Θεόν;» Ἡρακλείδης εἶπεν· «Τοῦτο μὲν σαφὲς λέγεις· ἡμεῖς δὲ λέγομεν Θεὸν εἶναι τὸν παντοκράτορα, Θεὸν ἄναρχον, ἀτελεύτητον, ἐμπεριέχοντα τὰ πάντα καὶ μὴ ἐμπεριε χόμενον, καὶ τὸν τούτου λόγον υἱὸν τοῦ Θεοῦ τοῦ ζῶντος, θεὸν καὶ ἄνθρωπον, δι' οὗ τὰ πάντα γέγονεν, θεὸν μὲν κατὰ πνεῦμα, ἄνθρωπον δὲ καθ' ὃ γεγέννηται ἐκ τῆς Μαρίας.» Ὠριγένης εἶπεν· «Ὃ ἐπυθόμην οὐκ ἔδοξας εἰρηκέ ναι. Σαφήνισον οὖν· ἴσως γὰρ οὐ παρηκολούθησα. Θεὸς ὁ Πατήρ;» Ἡρακλείδης εἶπεν· «Πάντως.» Ὠριγένης εἶπεν· «Ἕτερος τοῦ Πατρὸς ὁ Υἱός;» Ἡρακλείδης εἶπεν· «Πῶς γὰρ δύναται υἱὸς εἶναι, ἐὰν καὶ πατὴρ ᾖ;» Ὠριγένης εἶπεν· «Ἕτερος ὢν τοῦ Πατρὸς ὁ Υἱὸς καὶ αὐτός ἐστιν Θεός;» Ἡρακλείδης εἶπεν· «Καὶ αὐτός ἐστιν Θεός.» Ὠριγένης εἶπεν· «Καὶ γίνονται ἓν δύο Θεοί;» Ἡρακλείδης εἶπεν· «Ναί.» Ὠριγένης εἶπεν· «Ὁμολογοῦμεν δύο Θεούς;» Ἡρακλείδης εἶπεν· «Ναί· ἡ δύναμις μία ἐστίν.» Ὠριγένης εἶπεν· «Ἀλλ' ἐπεὶ προσκόπτουσιν οἱ ἀδελφοὶ ἡμῶν δύο εἶναι Θεούς, τὸν λόγον θεραπευτέον, καὶ <δεῖ> δεῖξαι κατὰ τί δύο εἰσὶν καὶ κατὰ τί εἷς Θεός εἰσιν οἱ δύο. Καὶ αἱ θεῖαι γραφαὶ πολλὰ δύο ἐδί δαξαν εἶναι ἕν, καὶ οὐ μόνον δύο ἀλλὰ καὶ πλείονα τῶν δύο τινὰ καὶ εἰ πολλῷ πλείονα τῷ ἀριθμῷ ἐδίδαξαν εἶναι ἕν. Τὸ νῦν προκείμενόν ἐστιν οὐ λαβόντα πρό 3 βλημα παρέρχεσθαι καὶ εἴρειν, ἀλλὰ διαμασήσασθαι διὰ τοὺς ἀκεραιοτέρους ὡσπερεὶ τὰ κρέα καὶ κατὰ βραχὺ τὸν λόγον ἐντιθέναι ταῖς ἀκοαῖς τῶν ἀκουόντων. Πολλὰ τοίνυν δύο κατὰ τὰς γραφὰς λέγεται εἶναι ἕν. Ποίας γραφάς; Ἀδὰμ ἕτερος, ἡ γυνὴ ἑτέρα. Ἀδὰμἕτερος τῆς γυναικὸς καὶ ἡ γυνὴ ἑτέρα τοῦ ἀνδρός· καὶ εἴρηται εὐθέως ἐν τῇ Κοσμοποιΐᾳ ὅτι οἱ δύο ἕν εἰσιν· «Ἔσονται γὰρ οἱ δύο εἰς σάρκα μίαν.» Οὐκοῦν ἔνεστίν ποτε δύο εἶναι μίαν σάρκα. Ἀλλὰ τήρει μοι ὅτι ἐπὶ τοῦ Ἀδὰμ καὶ Εὔας οὐκ εἴρηται ὅτι ἔσονται οἱ δύο εἰς πνεῦμα